The Non-Midas Touch, Deity Variant, 1.21PTW

Sirp is right, you will not be able to control your reputation, however I believe that the variant is winnable even with tainted reputation, it'll just add to the difficulty and fun...
I think what adds to the difficulty as well is the Pelago map, you could get stuck with a terrible start and never get out of the hole...Resources could also be a major issue.
How about having anarres check your start to see if it's playable for the variant ?

I'm tempted to join I must say... :)


EDIT : the server is time stamping back in the future, this post was written after Sirps post #21 ;)
 
I case of Sirp's example, you COULD give the Iroquois a city so that they can survive. Other examples, like random dissapearance of resources you trade (or cultural borders that change) are much more difficult to handle.

Therefore it is very important for us to trade luxuries, resources etc you are sure you will keep for 20 turns.

Yes, your rep (and the game) can be ruined by something you have no influence on. Still I think it must be possible. In my peaceful civ-period I played a lot of games based on my rep and only had 1 out of 20 fail.
 
What the hell is going on with this server?!? The posts are all over the place! Aggie's answering a question that Sirp hadn't even posted?!:p ;)

The rep issue: it is going to be a key part in the game, as I said in the first post. I agree with Sirp and CarlosMM that sometimes rep can be damaged and deals broken through no fault of the human player: that's part of the challenge;) We are all aware of the way that deals work, so we are going in with our eyes open; sure we're going to be relying on a bit of luck, but luck plays a part in all civ games, from combat results to goody huts to start position. We should not stop trading resources or gpt simply because we are afraid of the route being broken...we must be careful about the deals we make, certainly, but not paranoid.

As Skyfish says, there are ways to win even if your rep is torn to shreds, and it is up to us, as resourceful players, to figure those out. For example, if a country you have "betrayed" is at war with another civ, the other civ will actually "like" the fact that you have betrayed their enemy, and WILL deal in gpt with you, so we may have to engender a few conflicts if our rep gets trashed.

Also, there is another powerful tool in the locker, which is often overlooked by many players: renegotiating peace. It may well be the case that if we renegotiate peace against deity opponents, we will end up with a worse deal, but if that is the only way to get gpt accepted, then we may have to resort to it.

I fully agree with Sirp that this game may prove to be a good idea on paper but impractical in reality, but if we don't play, we won't find out! The worst that can happen is that we will lose the game...


Skyfish, congratulations on your second kid :love: If you do wish to join, there is a spot reserved for you ;)


Stuck as a Mack...we are still awaiting your decision on whether you wish to join us....

Jack Merchant....where on earth are you? Smoking :smoke: ?;)
 
Could anyone post the "unfair things" that appear with deals in this game ? I'm sacred of not knowing something and I don't want to be blamed. I heard that a civ that had a deal with you and get crushed will hurt our reputation... I can't believe this ?... :confused: And also why is there a bigger risk of broken deals than in an unmodded game ?

Go Greece ! Go Greece ! We need you hoplite avatar, Nad ! :D
 
Welcome, Stuck!:cool:

2 votes for Greece, 1 for Egypt, 1 for Russia. Jack Merchant and Skyfish, if they choose to join, still to vote.

Krys: there are a few ways that a deal can be broken through no fault of the human player but which the human player still gets the rep hit for. Off the top of my head, here are some of those reasons:

1) civ death. If a civilization you are trading RESOURCES (strategic or luxury) with gets killed, you take a rep hit since the deal was "broken". This only applies to resources, not technology, so, for example, if you buy a tech for gpt from another civ, and that civ gets killed, although the deal has ended there is NO rep hit because physical resources were not involved.

unconfirmed: some players say that if you trade resources purely for gpt or other resources, then the rep hit for a broken deal is less major (eg, if you were buying silks for 10gpt, with no maps, lump sum gold or technologies involved). I am not sure if this is the case, maybe someone else will know for sure whether or not this is true (my inclination is that it is not true, that if the deal is broken, you do still get a full rep hit).

2) breaking of trade routes. If a trade route with a civ you are trading resources with gets broken, irrespective of what caused the broken route, the human player gets a rep hit for breaking the deal. This is the most unpredictable element that can ruin your rep, as something as simple as a barbarian galley blocking a crucial coast square can break a trade route; wars can break trade routes if a road network went through the territory of a civ that went to war with your trade partner; a harbour that is destroyed through bombardment can break a deal; pillaging of roads likewise, etc. This is the one we have to be most careful with during this game.

There are probably some other reasons that deals can be broken through no fault of the human player, but which the human gets a rep hit for, but I can't recall them right now.
 
About those rep hits Nad mentions:

1) We can anticipate it, although it may be that a powerful civ gets wiped from the earth within 20 turns. Sirp mentioned that example. This can be helped by giving that civ a city somewhere far from the enemy.

2) Be very careful to trade with another civ while the trade route goes to a third civ's territory. THIS INCLUDES A SEA ROUTE! In this game we can't afford breaking a trade route. When navigation is discovered and the other civ has a harbour, then the troubles will be less severe. However: a city with a harbour can be destroyed, which is more difficult to control.

3) The loss of resources or luxuries you are trading. While trading your only iron resource this resource might deplete. You then have no resource anymore to trade: rep hit. Also a cultural border may change (your neighbour expands and takes your luxuriesy or resource this way). We should be extra careful with trading resources or luxuries we don't have a lot of.

@Krys: we won't get a bigger rep hit than in normal games. However, we now depend more on our rep, because gpt trades are more important. We do not have enough gold in cash and have to pay gpt :)
 
Okay, I want to get this baby moving. Since Greece has received the most votes so far, we'll go with them:) .

Jack Merchant and Skyfish....if you wish to join, your spots are reserved.


ROSTER

Nad
Krys
Aggie
Stuck
Meli
[Skyfish, if you wish to join]
[Jack Merchant, if you wish to join]

I'm going to generate the start now, and post a screenshot, then I will play my turns.
 
NMTStartPos.jpg


4000BC save

Right, I'm off to play my turns, back in a bit...
 
I'm in 2nd place again ? :D I've just post my "got it" in the other SG I'm now involved in (LK50). What a crappy start : no bonus in sight, no river, no lake, no sea next to us. I hope you'll find better site soon. We need commerce resources, otherwise we're dead !
 
Turn 1, 4000BC - The start looks a little dry but there is water of some sort to the north. 2 bgs, a few hills and some desert we can so far see. It's a decent start, not brilliant, but not bad either.

I decide to move the worker north onto the bg first of all, as that will probably be the first tile to improve and I also want to know whether the water to the north is fresh or salty. The water is salty, that is the top edge of our island...there is a fur within our 21 where we stand, another bg, a goody hut is revealed, and a fish is out of reach. After much deliberation, I decide to move the settler onto the same square as the worker, the bg to the north...this will make Athens coastal (always handy to have a coastal capital on an archipelago map), gets the fish into play, keeps the bgs in play (and at size 7, Athens' city square will produce 2 shields thanks to the bg it is founded on), and brings more grassland and coast into play, instead of a hill, mountain and desert. I think this decision was a judgement call, there were also arguments to found where we stood or even move inland.

NMTWMove.jpg


Turn 2, 3950BC - Athens founded, 2nd fur revealed. Difficult choice of first build, because there is a goody hut which will pop when our borders expand in 10 turns...if we build no military that will be a "safe" pop, but the only alternative at the moment is a barracks at 40 shields, which will slow our exploration. But getting barbs in 10 will be really nasty as they will interfere with our worker and may be able to pillage our land. This may turn out to be :smoke: but I'm going for barracks first, something I very rarely do.

worker moves to bg. Science is pottery at max, 27 turns ETA. Without any food bonuses, an early granary is essential.

Turn 3, 3900BC - worker starts mine.

Turns 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, nada

Turn 9, 3600BC - mine is complete, start road

Turns 10, 11, nada

IT: Athens grows, borders expand, hut pops, empty....would that have been barbs if we had any military. Who knows?

Turn 12, 3450BC - the road is complete, worker moves to another BG. Lux to 20%.

Turn 13, 3400BC - worker starts another mine

Turns 14, 15, nada

IT: barracks -------> warrior

Turns 16, 17, 18 nada (except MMing to fish for 4-3-3 shields to complete warrior)

IT: warrior ----------> warrior

Turn 19, 3100BC - worker completes mine, can now do 5spt for warriors in 2 turns; starts road. warrior will explore.

Turn 20, 3050BC - warrior spots another goody hut - I do not fancy popping it just yet.

IT: warrior -----------> warrior

Turn 21, 3000BC - 2nd warrior will also explore

IT: Athens to size 3, Herodotus' largest nations unsurprisingly has Greece last; our opponents (in size so far) are: Babylon, Russia, England, France, Egypt, China, India - a nice mix of traits, but not many aggressive civs - can only be a good thing!

Turn 22, 2950BC - worker completes road, moves to fur forest for chop that will help soon-to-be-constructed granary. Lux to 30%

Warriors exploring, unpromising terrain so far, other islands spotted to west.

IT: warrior --------> warrior

Turn 23, 2900BC - we now have 3 warriors to explore, next warrior is for defence, then granary. Worker starts chop.

Turn 24, 2850BC - warriors exploring, sci adjusted (have been running a loss due to barracks upkeep) as pottery due next turn.

IT: pottery researched, next player's choice what next, set to burial at the moment

warrior--------> granary

Turn 25, 2800BC - warrior fortifies. Lux to 20%. Others exploring.

Notes for next player: there is a hut which you can pop if you're feeling confident. Personally I would leave it until we have a hoplite or 2.

After the granary, we'll have to alternate between hoplites/settlers....Athens cannot manage consecutive settlers. Shields are good, 2 bgs and 2 fur forests which will act as bgs once chopped and mined, plus a fish...you wll also need to mine a normal grassland so Athens has 6 improved tiles to work on. The terrain so far is a little spartan, though there is a clump of bgs to the east.

Not sure what to do with science. No point in min science run as we won't be able to keep the gold just yet. I would suggest researching at max sustainable science. At the moment only burial and warrior code can be had in less than 40 at max...I would suggest CB as the cheapest, but it's up to you

I played 25 turns to start off; I think 15ish turns each in the 1st rotation, then back to 10 later. Save files as "NMT[date].sav" [or .zip] please.

NMT2800BCMap.jpg



The Save


Nad....just played
Krys......UP NOW
Aggie......ON DECK
Stuck
Meli
[Skyfish]
[Jack Merchant]
 
With so many players...and such a crapy start, I 'll join you guys :)

Please keep me where I am in the roster so it gives me a bit of time before I am up...AND I get to :whipped: Melifuous ! Yeehaa !
;)
 
Welcome Skyfish!:D :cool: Glad we've got a deity meister in our midst. Although the start looks fairly barren, there is a river to the south that irrigation can be brought from, the east looks fertile, and with the mix of terrain, we've got a decent chance of getting some strategic resources.
 
Its more the lack of rivers (for the extra commerce) in our first ring which will hamper us...
I guess we got more than 10g in our treasury now no ?
What's your policy on this please ?
 
at the moment we have 4g - I ran 100% expenditure after building a barracks, so that drained some of our gold. PLEASE KEEP IT THIS WAY, and make sure our treasury never goes above 10g. This is a guideline, not a straitjacket - if we do happen to go over 10g, I'm not going to cry foul and say we've lost by TKO - instead, the 10g is a voluntary parameter we have set ourselves, so do NOT run min science at the moment, as we have no way of getting rid of the extra gold until we meet another civ. It would be best to keep income at 0gpt and adjust the sliders to attain this.
 
whoops, a little micromanagement point I've just remembered for Krys: we want the granary to complete before Athens grows to size 4. The forest chop will help but I think you may also need to switch from the fish to a forest square for a couple of turns to make sure the granary is complete one turn before growth (not the same turn).
 
Ok, got it ! I will read this when I'm ready to play, which will not occur now : I'm busy completing the QSC for GOTM20 (60 turns played so far), then I have LK50 to do, then I will do this one. I also MUST be careful not to mix all my games, cause going from a slow-going game (tech speaking) to a no-gold one will be a headache at some point, but I'll manage it. :cool: Expect my turns tonight or tomorrow afternoon, not later.

Damn this dry start ! :aargh:
 
Oops, forgot about your MM thing. I often forget to build a granary before getting another citizen, my bad. :( And today I'm not in a good mood, and by the way, what a crappy start !

I see you count turn 1 = 4000bc. As I count 4000bc = turn 0 and I am a bit maniac (I like turns ending at round numbers, here : 2750bc), I will play 16 turns, not 15. Hope you understand...

pre-turn : Science 60%, lux 10% : does not change anything, but just to be sure fo the future.
GOLD : 4 (better write it down each turn, so as not to forget this rule !)

1- 2750bc : zzz
Crazy game : must not have more than 10 gold, and this start is somewhat unusual. We're in Deity, is that right ? Even though it's an archipelago map, we have lost some time with the barracks...
GOLD : 4

2- 2710bc : zzz
GOLD : 4

3- 2670bc : zzz
GOLD : 4

4- 2630bc : zzz
GOLD : 4

5- 2590bc : Land spotted in the north-east.
GOLD : 4

6- 2550bc : zzz
GOLD : 4

7- 2510bc : Athens pop 4.
Science 40%, lux 30%.
GOLD : 4

8- 2470bc : Forest chopped. Start mining.
Science 50%, lux 20%.
GOLD : 4

9- 2430bc : We're not alone ! Red borders in sight. Must be Babylonians.
GOLD : 4

10- 2390bc : Athens : granary > settler.
Science 40%.
GOLD : 4

11- 2350bc : zzz
GOLD : 4

IT : An orange scout passes by our warrior and does not say hello...

12- 2310bc : Meet Hamurabi, annoyed. I choose not to trade anything, cause we would get too much gold, I want to meet the English first.
GOLD : 4

13- 2270bc : zzz
GOLD : 4

14- 2230bc : Mine completed. Start roading.
Hammurabi only offers Ceremonial Burial...
GOLD : 4

15- 2190bc : Athens pop 2 : settler > warrior.
Science 20%, lux 0%.
GOLD : 4

16- 2150bc : zzz
GOLD : 4

Grrr, I should have tried to see this scout again...
The settler is meant to settle one tile east of now, on the plains by the sea.
We're in a bad position : just 1 city (not for long), no fresh water around (the river in the south won't bring water across the mountain barrier), and don't forget how difficult it is to trade under these conditions.

the save : 2150bc
 
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