The Official God FAQ
- Thread starter Mauer
- Start date
For me, at least, faith isn't really belief without proof. In my case, I have what I feel are good reasons for believing in God, even if they don't constitute proof in the normal sense. But faith isn't beliving, it is acting as though it is true - in other words, my faith is my acting as though God exists when I am not 100% certain.
Welcome to OT C~G and hahntsak. 
hahntsak
Clueless Barbarian Fool
speaking of God in the topic, I'm actually ordained by four different churches. I have a Doctor of Divinity from one of them and knighthood from another.
I'm Sir Reverend Dr. Stanley Rexwinkle.
http://www.ULC.org
Universal Life Church
{the best one}
[ordination, title of Rabbi and D.D.]
Universal Ministry [ordination and knighthood, I didn't get their D.D but it's available ]
{but keep in mind they can be a little slow - they aren't ripping anyone off, it just takes them some time to process stuff so be patient.}
http://www.universalministries.com/
church of 7 planes [ordination, I think they have knighthood and D.D. are available but as I had them I declined]
http://www.sevenplanes.org/
Saint Lukes Evangelical [Ordained, I think they have Knighthood, and D.D are available]
{Called "First International Church of the Web"
http://ficotw.org/index.html
So pious folk can log in and get the call to be official.
I've done a few weddings. consulted on many. I've given counseling, but only when begged. I haven't had to do any funerals, yet.
I'm Sir Reverend Dr. Stanley Rexwinkle.
http://www.ULC.org
Universal Life Church
{the best one}
[ordination, title of Rabbi and D.D.]
Universal Ministry [ordination and knighthood, I didn't get their D.D but it's available ]
{but keep in mind they can be a little slow - they aren't ripping anyone off, it just takes them some time to process stuff so be patient.}
http://www.universalministries.com/
church of 7 planes [ordination, I think they have knighthood and D.D. are available but as I had them I declined]
http://www.sevenplanes.org/
Saint Lukes Evangelical [Ordained, I think they have Knighthood, and D.D are available]
{Called "First International Church of the Web"
http://ficotw.org/index.html
So pious folk can log in and get the call to be official.
I've done a few weddings. consulted on many. I've given counseling, but only when begged. I haven't had to do any funerals, yet.
Narz
keeping it real
I don't care about your Bible quotes MobBoss.
If you KNOW you don't need faith.
If I KNOW that I have a hat on my head, I don't need to try really hard to believe in it or have faith my hair won't get wet if I go out in the rain. I don't argue with a crazy man who tells me my head doesn't exist because I feel it around my skull.
Faith is also necessary when there is uncertainty.
If you KNEW there was a God you wouldn't need faith. Because - you'd know.
My logic here is impeccable, feel free to argue against my point on the board but deep in your heart (and mind) you know what I'm saying is true.
If you KNOW you don't need faith.
If I KNOW that I have a hat on my head, I don't need to try really hard to believe in it or have faith my hair won't get wet if I go out in the rain. I don't argue with a crazy man who tells me my head doesn't exist because I feel it around my skull.
Faith is also necessary when there is uncertainty.
If you KNEW there was a God you wouldn't need faith. Because - you'd know.
My logic here is impeccable, feel free to argue against my point on the board but deep in your heart (and mind) you know what I'm saying is true.
Why do people need to be taught about God, and "learn" he exists, if Christians are so sure he exists? If God certainly existed, wouldn't all children eventually find out God exists on their own? Teaching about God, and being told he exists repeadedly through deep, spiritual church processions and Bible punch lines seems more like propaganda than anything else.
Narz
keeping it real
Of course. Little children instinctively know this too which is why they need so much drilling - weekly church, Sunday school, etc.Atlas14 said:
Atlas14 said:
I don't get how that logically follows. The way I see it, one can find out with a reasonable degree of certainty that God exists but it is a lengthy and involved process.
warpus
In pork I trust
Eran of Arcadia said:
And each person going through that process - not being exposed to any religion at all through the the whole experience - would arrive at an entirely different conclusion.
Christians see a need to indoctrinate because they have a very particular view of God that no other human would ever believe unless they were exposed to Christianity and taught about it.
Narz
keeping it real
Many of the exposed still don't believe it.warpus said:
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
warpus said:
Two things. I notice you didnt answer how old you were 15 years ago when this happend...and I still humbly submit that if your faith was "very strong" you wouldnt be an athiest today.
So, in your head your faith couldnt be any stronger....would you say you had the faith equal to say...Billy Graham? Well, I dont think Billy Graham to be an un-intelligent man...so...how come he isnt an athiest?
Sorry Warpus...no matter how strong YOU think your faith was, it obviously wasnt even as big as a mustard seed. Instead of moving mountains you just moved yourself away from God.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
hahntsak said:
And I bet you serve the best Koolaid to be found in California.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Narz said:
Of course you dont since they prove you to be precisely WRONG. But oh well, denial of truth is ever the salve of the heretic.
Once more, you are wrong again dear boy.
Oh, so now you know the inner workings of my heart?
I think not. I have faith in God because I know him and I know his promises to me. Faith isnt believing in something that isnt there...faith is believing in something/someone that will be there for you. Faith is being able to count on it.Like I said before....like trying to describe color to a blind man.....
GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
I would agree to that statement, I have faith and trust in God . I also agree fully to your statement on trying to describe God to an atheist is like trying to describe color to a blind person or trying to describe sound to a deaf person. I can say I was blind (metaphoricaly speeking) untill I saw the light form myself and rediscovered God,MobBoss said:Oh, so now you know the inner workings of my heart?
Like I said before....like trying to describe color to a blind man.....
hahntsak
Clueless Barbarian Fool
MobBoss said:And I bet you serve the best Koolaid to be found in California.
actually I prefer pure H2O. koolaid has too much sugar. health is important.
I don't try to indocrinate others. If they come to me for help, I help them as best I can. I will say the too many clergy of all faiths often tend to tailor their sermons to just to increase their tithing income. they tolerate wealthier sinners more than poor. they sometimes even coddle the wealthiest evil, while telling those on the brink and poor it's simply their fault. Christian clergy often leave out the part of not serving God and Mammon [money]. sometimes the clergy is the one doing the worst things. not only the fringe belief systems [called cults], but the so called main stream faiths as well. Whether it's embezzling from the church or temple coffers [often not made public] or sexual relation within members - often underage members.
whether it's catholic priests or an episcapal minister having affairs, a pentacostal evangelist with a hooker, a buddhist monk accused of web surfing for porn on the temple pc, it means people should not just take a title at its word, nor the church workers as above temptation simply because they work in a particular church. they are all human beings, and humans can all mess up.
it's been said there was only one perfect man, and when they discovered his perfection - they killed him!
I try to live as best I can.
Humanity must be a part of the process, and an open heart on the part of the clergy should be an honest one as well - but watch yourself just in case.
The man who claims that Jesus walks with him is no more credible than the man that claims his dead grandmother whispers in his ear. The woman who claims that she feels the presence of Allah is no more rational than the woman who believes that werewolves stalk the streets of London.
I believe the human mind is a wonderful thing, but too inwardly focused. We can visualise fantastic things, form amazing concepts. Sometimes, people shout out into the "cave" that is our mind - and they recieve an reply. They assume that it's the voice of another being, something that is responding to their call.
What they never consider is that the "voice" is an echo.
If you think you know God, and that he's with you, and speaks to you, and that you can know of him and have faith; you may well be insane. If you immediately take offense and say "Insane? You intolerant, smug atheist, I simply have faith!", then you are definately insane, because you won't even consider the possibility of delusion. Now that's madness.
You're a man who sees a Coke machine in a desert and immediately assumes it must be real because you can see it. That's all you need to know. If you're walking alongside another traveller and he doesn't see it, well, he simply lacks faith... as you know the Coke machine is there. You can see it!
Now our alternative man thinks "Okay, I see a Coke machine. But this is the desert, and there's no electricity, and I'm miles from civilisation... I think this must be a mirage." Even if he can see it, logically, it has no right to be there. And even though he can see it, he won't believe it right away, because he allows for the chance of madness.
We can prove the Coke machine isn't there. Go up to it, press a button (and fall flat on our face in the sand.) At which point both parties sheepishly say "Well, guess I went a little bit crazy there."
We can test the presence of God - with prayer. I'll spoil the ending: when you pray to that God, your prayer is not answered. Sure, sometimes people pray and then in six months something happens that's kinda like what you prayed for so - hallelujah! your prayer is answered!
But I suggest you pray right now for a new car. What's that? God doesn't work like that? Well, pray for good luck then - you won the lottery four months later? So God is real! But wait; what's the difference between "good luck" and a "new car"? Nothing. God either answers both prayers or neither. God is not going to gift you the lottery any more or less than he is going to hand you a shiny new car. The only advantage the latter has is that it provides a certain degree of "flexibility"... for self-deception.
You could pray for healing, right? He is a benevolent God, he loves you and wishes you and yours well. You pray for your grandmother to recover from cancer. She does. God is great! Now pray for your brother's amputated leg to grow back. Keep praying, it's not going to happen. Pray for your dead grandfather to return to life. I don't think so.
So we can't prove God is real with prayer. Prayer is the only way we can tangibly impress the existence of God onto the world outside our minds; with the so-called miracle. The miracle is the outward sign of God, yet it cannot be produced by prayer.
You can find millions who would object, and say that their prayers have been answered; but have they been praying for the easy, self-deceptive prayers, or the ones that we all know - even the most devout - won't be answered? The new car? The amputated leg? Why do even the religious just shrug and mutter "God works in mysterious ways" when it comes to these, but won't question God curing AIDS or a brain tumour?
If you can't prove your God with prayer, and he exists only as a feeling, a voice; and you still say that you KNOW God is real; then you are insane. A madman. Deranged. Bonkers. Batty. Bananas. A fruitcake. A loon. A gibbering wreck who wouldn't be out of place scrawling on the padded walls of Arkham Asylum. I'm breaking it to you as gently as I can, as I realise the concept of your insanity may be somewhat unexpected.
One of the posters above me tried to draw an analogy of describing "colour to the blind" as the superiority - yes, the superiority, let's not mince words - of the faithful to the unfaithful. Such an analogy tries to portray the atheist as blind (and deaf) against a man who can see (and hear)
My rebuttal: It's blindness to say "God is absolutely real" or "God is absolutely false". If you truly believe any God is real, then you have lost the capacity to consider your own mental fallibility, and that is blindness. If you truly believe any God is false, then you have lost the capacity to consider beyond what you can understand, and that is blindness.
The latter, by the way, is not the viewpoint of atheists - rather anti-theists. Atheists and agnostics might even hear the same "voices" that the assuredly religious hear, but rather than take it to be God, they dismiss it when it fails to prove itself. It is not a unique gift to the religious to "experience" the presence of God; it is merely their unique failing that they do not question whether it is God or delusion.
I believe the human mind is a wonderful thing, but too inwardly focused. We can visualise fantastic things, form amazing concepts. Sometimes, people shout out into the "cave" that is our mind - and they recieve an reply. They assume that it's the voice of another being, something that is responding to their call.
What they never consider is that the "voice" is an echo.
If you think you know God, and that he's with you, and speaks to you, and that you can know of him and have faith; you may well be insane. If you immediately take offense and say "Insane? You intolerant, smug atheist, I simply have faith!", then you are definately insane, because you won't even consider the possibility of delusion. Now that's madness.
You're a man who sees a Coke machine in a desert and immediately assumes it must be real because you can see it. That's all you need to know. If you're walking alongside another traveller and he doesn't see it, well, he simply lacks faith... as you know the Coke machine is there. You can see it!
Now our alternative man thinks "Okay, I see a Coke machine. But this is the desert, and there's no electricity, and I'm miles from civilisation... I think this must be a mirage." Even if he can see it, logically, it has no right to be there. And even though he can see it, he won't believe it right away, because he allows for the chance of madness.
We can prove the Coke machine isn't there. Go up to it, press a button (and fall flat on our face in the sand.) At which point both parties sheepishly say "Well, guess I went a little bit crazy there."
We can test the presence of God - with prayer. I'll spoil the ending: when you pray to that God, your prayer is not answered. Sure, sometimes people pray and then in six months something happens that's kinda like what you prayed for so - hallelujah! your prayer is answered!
But I suggest you pray right now for a new car. What's that? God doesn't work like that? Well, pray for good luck then - you won the lottery four months later? So God is real! But wait; what's the difference between "good luck" and a "new car"? Nothing. God either answers both prayers or neither. God is not going to gift you the lottery any more or less than he is going to hand you a shiny new car. The only advantage the latter has is that it provides a certain degree of "flexibility"... for self-deception.
You could pray for healing, right? He is a benevolent God, he loves you and wishes you and yours well. You pray for your grandmother to recover from cancer. She does. God is great! Now pray for your brother's amputated leg to grow back. Keep praying, it's not going to happen. Pray for your dead grandfather to return to life. I don't think so.
So we can't prove God is real with prayer. Prayer is the only way we can tangibly impress the existence of God onto the world outside our minds; with the so-called miracle. The miracle is the outward sign of God, yet it cannot be produced by prayer.
You can find millions who would object, and say that their prayers have been answered; but have they been praying for the easy, self-deceptive prayers, or the ones that we all know - even the most devout - won't be answered? The new car? The amputated leg? Why do even the religious just shrug and mutter "God works in mysterious ways" when it comes to these, but won't question God curing AIDS or a brain tumour?
If you can't prove your God with prayer, and he exists only as a feeling, a voice; and you still say that you KNOW God is real; then you are insane. A madman. Deranged. Bonkers. Batty. Bananas. A fruitcake. A loon. A gibbering wreck who wouldn't be out of place scrawling on the padded walls of Arkham Asylum. I'm breaking it to you as gently as I can, as I realise the concept of your insanity may be somewhat unexpected.
One of the posters above me tried to draw an analogy of describing "colour to the blind" as the superiority - yes, the superiority, let's not mince words - of the faithful to the unfaithful. Such an analogy tries to portray the atheist as blind (and deaf) against a man who can see (and hear)
My rebuttal: It's blindness to say "God is absolutely real" or "God is absolutely false". If you truly believe any God is real, then you have lost the capacity to consider your own mental fallibility, and that is blindness. If you truly believe any God is false, then you have lost the capacity to consider beyond what you can understand, and that is blindness.
The latter, by the way, is not the viewpoint of atheists - rather anti-theists. Atheists and agnostics might even hear the same "voices" that the assuredly religious hear, but rather than take it to be God, they dismiss it when it fails to prove itself. It is not a unique gift to the religious to "experience" the presence of God; it is merely their unique failing that they do not question whether it is God or delusion.
warpus
In pork I trust
MobBoss said:
I was around 14-15. Is it impossible for someone to have strong faith regarding something, but then have a change of heart later? I view everything with an open mind - but that doesn't mean that I couldn't have been utterly convinced of the existence of God those 14 years ago.
I was - as much as you are now.
MobBoss said:
I have no idea who that is.
MobBoss said:
It was strong - it was just a matter of opening my eyes and realizing that I was wrong. But at one point - yes, my faith was strong.
The longing for god is in everyone; it shows up as our need for unity, order, love, companionship etc. Religion is a cultural artifact that must be taught and learned. Religions attempt to harness the power of that longing for their own purposes.Atlas14 said:
MobBoss: your quantification of faith through which you render a judgement on another's spirituality is way too scientific an approach. In essense you have said that faith that doesn't survive all tests wasn't ever faith at all. Someone could even quote scritpture here.
Birdjaguar said:Religions attempt to harness the power of that longing for their own purposes.
Sure they give some fufillment, but religion is also a means of finding truth through interaction with other seekers.
