The OpenDev/Preview Thread

[tedhebert]

I think it is probably needed, otherwise you can simply kite which tend to be a big issue in turn based combat and encourage range unit spam over anything else. They could rename it to capture the supply train or something like that instead of flag to make it sound like something that was the goal in battles.

yes that's exactly how amplitude explains it... to get away from kiting wins... but the downside is that the AI will just sit on it and wait for you to move and attack... and when you DO move, as @FinalDoomsday mentioned, they will pounce on you and destroy you...

so far, I always had the first move in battle... maybe one of the scenarios left will have us be the defenders to give us a taste of the other side

anyways... I don't like winning because I'm standing on a spot, even if the other side is still stronger than I am

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Do it matter which side is the attacker and defender, or what happens if you capture the enemy flag?

If the ai attack and then stand still, that could be a huge problem, especially ai vs ai. I suspect they will make sure the ai do try to play aggressively if they attack or maybe simply have the advantage.

 

[tedhebert]

Do it matter which side is the attacker and defender, or what happens if you capture the enemy flag?

If the ai attack and then stand still, that could be a huge problem, especially ai vs ai. I suspect they will make sure the ai do try to play aggressively if they attack or maybe simply have the advantage.

Only the defender has a flag...

and of course this is so way off from being complete and balanced... we're thrown off by the quality of the product, even in this pre-alpha... but the reality is that almost everything can still change before launch

that being said, I think it's actually a good sign that the AI doesn't just rush into any bad map situation

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

The ai did seems to do some mistakes in Lambert's king of the hill by positioning units in the river with lambert's immortals being on the high ground next to them. However in the later turns the ai started to play defensively and did not allow Lambert to cross the river at all, I'm not sure why the ai did such change from playing aggressively to turtling.

The rivers and high ground feels extremely powerful, something like a unit on high ground behind a river can hold off like 2 or 3 times its numbers.

and of course this is so way off from being complete and balanced... we're thrown off by the quality of the product, even in this pre-alpha... but the reality is that almost everything can still change before launch

Thats is pretty much the purpose of open dev, like what is otherwise the point if they would not use the information in order to change stuff to make the final game better. I think the main issue with open dev scenarios is they have yet to show how the game mechanics as a whole play out, but I suspect they may release such scenario later on.

 

[tedhebert]

one other thing I didn't talk about is how LOS is difficult to understand... there a fog of war in battle mode for places on the map you have no LOS on... but it's very hard for me, atm, to figure our exactly how it works... you finish your turn and suddenly, out of the blue of the fog of war, comes 4 hoplites you couldn't really know were coming that way

exciting, but not very good for the nerves

 

[Elhoim]

The last win was a bit cheap, at the end I sent my two remaining units WAY back and they didn't come after me. I just let the turns go by and won

 

[tedhebert]

Ok the siege I just did also.

There's SOOO many things I don't understand. Somehow again I succeeded on the second try. First try I took my north side units to the north side of the city, instead of on the east side with everyone else. They never got into the battle, became reinforcement, and then i was NEVER able to activate them. That reinforcement thingy is extremely badly explained, sometimes I get lucky and somehow succeed in getting them into the battle, but most time I just can't do it.

Also my pikemen were getting completely trashed by those francii units ? aren't they cavalry ?

anyhow... still very fun with the trebuchets and all. also lots of different units in there, great swordsmen and pikemen on my side, archers and crossbowmen and militia and that francii cavalry... interesting trying to figure out who is good and bad against whom

 

[CivLuvah]

It's almost 12 hours in and I haven't received anything for OpenDev. If I don't get in by tomorrow, I hope I could get in next week.

 

[tedhebert]

Ok so... Last of the 4 mini battles done. That one had us be the attacked instead of the attacker. And made us turtle against an army with more than twice the power and number of units. Again, took me 2 times to get it.

Was very fun from my point of view. Made me really see the power of fortifying at a river line with elevated melee units and putting range units in the back, also elevated.

I think there was a bug with one of the attacking unit type, the Mortar, which description says it must have line of sight, but somehow was able to attack anything from anyplace on the map. Didn't make much sense to me. anyways.

All in all, battle's very fun. It's not even close to be perfect; A battle takes VERY long to play out. I can't imagine playing a whole militaristic game at that pace; and if it means turning on auto-battle all the time, then why bother with convoluted strategic combat in the first place ?
Still, I can very much imagine an average, not too aggressive game being a lot of fun with this system. It's certainly more fun that civ's battles. And I,m convinced that I haven't seen or understood a large portion of the battle subsystem; It promises to be very deep.

Overall, for a pre-alpha unbalanced game that seems to be still many months away from release, I would say this is very impressive.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

All in all, battle's very fun. It's not even close to be perfect; A battle takes VERY long to play out. I can't imagine playing a whole militaristic game at that pace; and if it means turning on auto-battle all the time, then why bother with convoluted strategic combat in the first place ?

We don't know how frequent battles will be one or two descisive battles might decide a war. It's also worth remembering there is no 'domination' victory the game is not built for you to paint the whole map. You probably won't have a militaristic game but instead you might have a militaristic phase where you go conquering for a era so I think the slower tactical combat could really work and be memorable.

 

[Siptah]

Yes, it seems like sieges are quite an undertaking, especially when a city is large, fortified and has castle quarters that cannot be reached by your siege. It’s not necessarily something you would do 10 times in one era to conquer 10 cities. It takes strategical planning and preparation, some turns to build siege equipment, and some turns to recover. It‘s not as quick as in civ, where an army with 3-4 siege units destroy all fortifications in a single round and you can take a city ach turn unharmed once the main army of the opponent is dealt with.

 

[aguaacrobata2]

Here is a playthrough of the first 2 new scenarios from GUD. I think his videos are the ones that I find the most enjoyable

 

[CivLuvah]

Here is a playthrough of the first 2 new scenarios from GUD. I think his videos are the ones that I find the most enjoyable

I better create a playlist of these videos eventually if I don't get in.

 

[Elhoim]

I think it all depends on the real army cap the final game. They are making an effort to keep the city count low, and the same goes for the number of units around the map. As others have said, a big battle could define a war, or even BE the war itself, since it can lasts several turns and you can add reinforcements to it during the battle. So it can become a bit like the trenches on WWI, with each side feeding units to the battlefield over several turns. In any case, it's very fun to play, and definitely eager to see it in a proper game.

 

[tedhebert]

We don't know how frequent battles will be one or two descisive battles might decide a war. It's also worth remembering there is no 'domination' victory the game is not built for you to paint the whole map. You probably won't have a militaristic game but instead you might have a militaristic phase where you go conquering for a era so I think the slower tactical combat could really work and be memorable.

Yes, it seems like sieges are quite an undertaking, especially when a city is large, fortified and has castle quarters that cannot be reached by your siege. It’s not necessarily something you would do 10 times in one era to conquer 10 cities. It takes strategical planning and preparation, some turns to build siege equipment, and some turns to recover. It‘s not as quick as in civ, where an army with 3-4 siege units destroy all fortifications in a single round and you can take a city ach turn unharmed once the main army of the opponent is dealt with.

Yes...

but still. I believe that the option to crush your opponent in a military will always be an option. If you wipe them all, they can't beat you in the end.

but I understand your argument, and I really hope it goes the way you,re both saying. I would love it if the game has moderation on war, but it remains still an extremely important part of the game.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

It sounded like in the stream that walls will only be for the city center, so extensions would lack walls? I wonder what happens if you capture an extension.

 

[aguaacrobata2]

It sounded like in the stream that walls will only be for the city center, so extensions would lack walls? I wonder what happens if you capture an extension.

As far as I understood from the videos, Walls include extensions as far as they are connected with the city centre (not sure if the extension is not connected to the city centre being part of a Port or Castle hub)... You can even have 2 level of walls when a Castle is inside your city center hub (as shown in the Paris siege scenario).

As I have not been invited to the OpenDev I could not check this by myself, maybe some of you that do have been invited can confirm and give some details on that

Edit: minor typing correction

 

[FinalDoomsday]

As far as I understood from the videos, Walls include extensions as far as they are connected with the city centre (not sure if the extension is not connected to the city centre being part of a Port or Castle hub)... You can even have 2 level of walls when a Castle is inside your city center hub (as shown in the Paris siege scenario).

I wonder if you built walls then later expanded your city would the walls auto update to meet the new city limits or would they remain as they are? Visually it would be very nice to see the old medieval centre of a city surrounded by walls with the later expansion sprawling out beyond them.

 

[tedhebert]

As far as I understood from the videos, Walls include extensions as far as they are connected with the city centre (not sure if the extension is not connected to the city centre being part of a Port or Castle hub)... You can even have 2 level of walls when a Castle is inside your city center hub (as shown in the Paris siege scenario).

As I have not been invited to the OpenDev I could not check this by myself, maybe some of you that do have been invited can confirm and give some details on that

Edit: minor typing correction

I really can't pose myself as an expert on this. But in scenario 2-3, the siege, I can tell you that Paris's wall extended the whole length of the city. The battle was expected to be initiated from the east side, and I didn,t count, but there must have been well over 10 tiles between that wall and city center, if not more. It was on an island that was thin north/south and large east/west. I'll try and grab a screenshot ans post it here after work today

 

[aguaacrobata2]

I wonder if you built walls then later expanded your city would the walls auto update to meet the new city limits or would they remain as they are? Visually it would be very nice to see the old medieval centre of a city surrounded by walls with the later expansion sprawling out beyond them.

That would be indeed very very nice