The OpenDev/Preview Thread

[8housesofelixir]

Also huge shoutout to that guy on Reddit who pointed out the difficulty glitch. Having infinitely more fun with active opponents. Was pretty bored after playing the same map 4 times without challenge!

Certainly. Just opened up a "real" Normal difficulty game today and the game is far more dynamic.

It is currently Classical Era and I already had two wars declared on me; I pillaged the hell out of the Brown AI to force him surrender (pillage really reduces war desire) despite his military was way more stronger; right now he is my vassal but his religion is sweeping through the entire continent. I also messed up the Industrial Mode and plummeted my science, as a result the Green AI is viewing me as a pray, and he just chose the Huns. Basically, dynamic and fun.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Certainly. Just opened up a "real" Normal difficulty game today and the game is far more dynamic.

It is currently Classical Era and I already had two wars declared on me; I pillaged the hell out of the Brown AI to force him surrender (pillage really reduces war desire) despite his military was way more stronger; right now he is my vassal but his religion is sweeping through the entire continent. I also messed up the Industrial Mode and plummeted my science, as a result the Green AI is viewing me as a pray, and he just chose the Huns. Basically, dynamic and fun.

If he chose the Huns and he's ahead in Science, he's probably planning to prey, and it may be too late to pray . . .

One little delight in the game is how your neighbors' choices of Factions give you a real clue as to their intentions in the Near Future

 

[CivLuvah]

I finally got a proper playthrough in my second time. Played Assyrians>Greeks>Mongols>Spanish. I wisely went north and carved out my empire there. Attached most of my outposts to my cities, which gave me a good foundation later in the game. I went into Mongols because I want to try their Nomad mechanic. I declared a suprise war on the Green Aztecs, and I pillaged everything they had while I was churning out horde after horde. By the second-to-the-last turn I had to micromanage about 20 Mongol hordes and a few other armies with standard units to go back to my borders.

Which brings up a point: there isn't a limit to how many armies you have in the OpenDev like there isn't a limit to the number of districts. Also, I noticed that while I was pillaging to increase the number of my hordes, at the same time my cities start to overpopulate and become production stagnant. I don't know if it's a Nomad culture mechanic or I I just didn't built enough standard armies.

 

[Atlas627]

They said they're looking at some way to limit the number of armies, as a lot of feedback indicated that we liked the limitation. Honestly I feel the same way about the quarters, but they would need to adjust the numbers.

 

[8housesofelixir]

So I had another game on "real" Normal difficulty. I immediately headed towards the east after spawned. Strangely, when I arrived at the eastern coast, the Red AI which usually occupies the southeast wasn't there; so I grabbed all the southeast and advanced into Zhou.

Meanwhile, I had seen the Brown AI's Brown border in the Neolithic - he, as usual, occupies that mineral-rich tile with Obsidian and Copper that is directly north of the spawn - but after I advanced into Zhou, the Brown border disappeared. I send a scout to see what had happened, and found that someone else sacked the Brown AI's only outpost there.

I stay in the Zhou for at least 10 turns when the Red AI, still in the Neolithic, shown up on my border; I immediately chased them away, forced them to move into another territory.

As a result, the Brown and Red AI only advanced into Ancient Era around turn 30 (!). And their capitals were directly next to each other:

Spoiler :

The Brown AI still colonized the north, but the Red AI was entirely being trapped between me, Brown AI, and the Green AI. She was then being attacked by Brown and Green AI from both sides and became a vassal of the Brown's.

This funny dynamic situation also taught me that, the Humankind AI, like the Civ AI, will let you peacefully do your own thing if you are not immediately on their borders.

 

[8housesofelixir]

The Partition of the New World: The "real" higher difficulty AI will be more likely into colonializing the new continent; as the screenshot shown, 5 out of 7 cultures tried to grab a piece of land there.

Spoiler :

I absolutely love the overall territorial design of the new continent, because it makes my exploration truly amazing:

One will first reach the new continent by sea. However, there are always highlands and mountains close to the coast, your ships cannot see much, not to say that the coastal lands are not very fertile. So you will land on the coast, set up an outpost for supply, and send an expedition inland.

The deeper you go inland, the richer the lands are; there are mineral deposits here and there, an ocean of rocky fields for production, and rivers to feed your outposts. Follow the river upstream, in the very heart of the new continent, on the top of a huge plateau, you will find 2-3 territories that are absolutely rich in strategic and luxuries resources. When I reached that territory, I feel like I found the Seven Cities of Gold or at least the Cerro Rico Mines of Potosi (which was also discovered by landing on the eastern coast of the continent and follow the upstream inland).

Spoiler :

This is the very first time that exploring in a 4x game (instead of, say, a 3rd person adventure game) makes me feel like I'm in an exploration romance. A huge thank you to the devs who designed this part of the map.

 

[mitsho]

Oh gosh, does that difficulty make a difference.

I hadn't even seen those option on my first playthrough and it does make a difference. The map is still too crowded for my taste. I couldn't fill my planned city planning since the other empires were far too quick to claim them as well. It's a race in the beginning - and I still feel there should be a way to contest a territory with an outpost. Ok, it was easy to ask for it in a grievance, but that feels like cheating.

I still haven't found out how to war in the right way, since f.e. armies retreat before I can assess the situation and I'm not sure how/if I can disattach an outpost or administrative centre to another - and I feel like I should be able to.

So my main "grievances" that a) the pace is too quick. I will be playing the game in several sessions, so I will enjoy playing slower games where I can properly use my units before the next era rolls around. That b) snowballing is too easy in this rule version. That c) - all at the same time - expansion is too cheap and cities grow too quickly into their areas. Maybe this was because of the crowded map chosen, but I feel there's some potential here. At the moment it doesn't feel like the historic ebb and flow of the eras for me. And d) there's some serious work to be done flavour-wise. The notifications need to actually tell me which era star I gained, but need cutting down on the "new population point"-spam. Outposts need names (which one am I attaching right now?), just as Harbours far away from the town centre can get.

And I am already looking forward to the DLC that will add more cultures - I feel there's still gameplay potential in there. All in all, I am looking forward to the game. Thank you Amplitude for the opportunity to play this OpenDev.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Another example of the weird Civic unlock requirements in Lucy Opendev:

It is currently Early Modern Era, and my empire is still being ruled by a Small Council established in the beginning of the Ancient Era:

Spoiler :

There are higher levels of Rulership Civics after this, but they outright refused to unlock, even if I have 10+ spare civic points, an empire spans across two continents, and several 50+ population megalopolises.

It seems that, the entire population of my empire never felt any need of constitutional change in the past 1000+ years. What an achievement, probably the most stable constitution in the human history; Aristotle and Polybius will be proud.

 

[Atlas627]

You can contest a territory with an outpost as long as you don't have a Non-Aggression Pact (or Alliance afaik). You just march right in there and start pillaging it. They'll have a grievance against you for doing it, though.

I agree that the game plays too fast and the eras don't have much to them, and I assume part of that is that some things haven't been fully implemented yet (and surely this game will get expansions). I really hope that it will be a lot harder to do things overall so that the pace gets slowed down, and more importantly so that each era feels different from the last.

Neolithic: exploring and finding a place to settle
Ancient: settling few best territories, skirmishing and rushing if running those cultures
Classical: grabbing many territories with outposts, consolidating some land, dealing with Independent Peoples
Medieval: develop large empires on a single continent
Early Modern: contact with other continents, colonization for cheaper trade and additional land
Industrial: empire spanning continents, colonization for resources and significant yields
Contemporary: some sort of UN system

 

[mitsho]

You can contest a territory with an outpost as long as you don't have a Non-Aggression Pact (or Alliance afaik). You just march right in there and start pillaging it. They'll have a grievance against you for doing it, though.

Yeah, but as I was walking around the cliff to get there, they attached it to a city, and now it's an administrative center and I'd have to attack that one, right? Again, they just literally planted the outpost down the turn I wanted to do it... Maybe this has just something to do with a crowded map or me being too hungry for territory

(but the pacing is too fast in claiming territory. That's the fun part, there should be some back and forth in those eras - as you describe in your era descriptions ).

 

[CivLuvah]

Another OpenDev is over, and here are my final thoughts. I tried to finish my third playthrough yesterday, but the lag that came out of nowhere was so unbearable I had to quit at turn 125. From the two playthroughs I've done, here is the general feedback that I could muster:

Positives:
Like what I have said about the previous two OpenDevs, this already feels like a complete game with all its systems. I guess to put it in a more cautious tone, the massive potential is there.

Negatives:
My only general negative about the OpenDev so far is summed up in the word "limits". There are no limits to how many districts you can plop down, how many units you can make, how many units you can make based on the number of strategic resources you have. I guess this belongs to the balance problems the game has at this stage.

So those are my general thoughts since I can't do more playthroughs, and thus provide developed feedback because of my wisdom tooth extraction.

Hope things will be better for me in the next OpenDev!

 

[Atlas627]

Yeah, but as I was walking around the cliff to get there, they attached it to a city, and now it's an administrative center and I'd have to attack that one, right? Again, they just literally planted the outpost down the turn I wanted to do it... Maybe this has just something to do with a crowded map or me being too hungry for territory

(but the pacing is too fast in claiming territory. That's the fun part, there should be some back and forth in those eras - as you describe in your era descriptions ).

Ah, once it is attached to a city, then you'd have to declare war to enter the official borders. But you can still pillage the administrative center to "unsettle" the region. Not sure how weird that looks if it already has significant urbanization...does it all just poof?

 

[Elhoim]

Ah, once it is attached to a city, then you'd have to declare war to enter the official borders. But you can still pillage the administrative center to "unsettle" the region. Not sure how weird that looks if it already has significant urbanization...does it all just poof?

What do you think this is, Civ VI?

It stays there for a few turns (or maybe just the turn it happens), then it turns to ruins. Ruins block all yields on the tile, and you have to remove them with a city action.

 

[mitsho]

Yeah, I had to stop playing before the ransacking (not pillaging, tsstsstss! ) action was over. When I was doing that to the poor Green AI, I tried to find out how strong his military was and also how far in the tech tree they were (i.e. which units do they have available?). Such information was also lacking or if it was there, I couldn't find it in the UI. It's okay if I'd need some Spy or Diplomatic visibility or an ongoing traderoute for that knowledge (makes sense), but then tell me that. Also, since units can move far farther and faster in Humankind, it's easier to move an army from the opposite of your empire ("the shadows") to the place of action, so having that knowledge is far more important than in the other game, where the unit movement is slow.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

One of the advantages of being Retired is that I could spend most of today playing a last round of Lucy OpenDev. One of the disadvantages of having family within a 100miles radius is that up until Christmas I was too busy to play as much as I wanted to! Here's hoping for at least one more OpenDev before April.

Comments:

In many respects, the game is already as polished and plays as well in many aspects as Civ VI, which is simply stunning when comparing a game that has been out for years and one that is still months away from Release Date.
Not only does the terrain look good, the map generation (as @housesofelixer pointed out) is far, far better than Civ VI: no jumbles of rainforest, forest, plains, deserts all within a single city radius to allow for artificial 'District adjacencies' and a distribution of resources of all kinds that really stimulates play: in my last game I had trade routes running with all three of my neighbors and two of them were 'retrading' resources using their Merchant Ability. Imagine what a Sogdian Faction could do with this!

Specifics:
1. I think that the game pace is a little too quick. I never took more than 90 - 100 turns to go through the Neolithic, Ancient and Classical Eras and reach Medieval, which means that 2.5 Eras (Neolithic is at best a very 'short Era') were gone in about 1/3 of the game's designed time. Unless things slow down dramatically later on, I would estimate most games are going to be about 10% too short: ending by Turn 260 - 270 instead of a full 300 turns. That's not as bad as Civ VI's Atomic and Information Era ennui, but it indicates that the pace could do with some tweaking.

2. They still have a lot to do with Information Flow. Much of the Diplomatic interactions are pretty opaque at start: it took me several tries to figure out what Renouncing a Demand meant, and half the time it seemed that all I could do was respond to AI diplomatic overtures, not initiate any of my own. This is going to require a lot more very specific informative 'Pop Ups' in the Diplomacy Screen or a very good Tutorial Scenario. - or both.

3. Given that we are all entering Humankind's world from Planet Civ, and I suspect the majority of new Humankind gamers will be doing the same, they are going to have to concentrate on those things that Humankind does very differently. For one major instance, When and How can you go to war, or attack some Scout, or Ransack some Outpost? Again, these very basic differences in design between the two games will have to be Spelled Out for new players somehow, or they are going to be Confused and Frustrated by the game.
Another example: in one game my religion ("Olmecian Polytheism", which doesn't exactly trip off the tongue - they should allow us to Name Our Religions) dominated the entire continent - but I never built a Holy Site and in fact, no matter where I looked, never got the option to build a Holy Site, and I still don't know why or what I should have been doing differently. Enough of these kinds of Opague Game Mechanics and players will leave in droves, no matter how good the terrain looks - you can only chase deer around with the cursor so long before you get bored Stiff.

4. There are definitely still some numbers that need tweaking. Two that I experienced, and I'm sure others have their own Lists:
Mauryans: +10 Faith, +10 Science for every Independent People Patronized. If you've met and managed to Patronize 2 or more Indies, taking Mauryans can instantly increase your science by 25 - 50%. That's a serious boost, and you get the game's first Elephant Unit besides. It's situationally OP, I suspect.
Khmer: Specifically, the Baray is a Beast of a Quarter. I was getting yields of +9 to +20 (!) from a single Baray and getting Bonuses for Food, Production, Science, and Gold from each Baray. It is way OP compared to anything that came before, and I didn't see anything in the Medieval Era from any other Faction that came close to the sheer scope of its bonuses. And, with the Khmer, you get another Elephant. Maybe the game is just designed to Make Elephants Great Again?

 

[Atlas627]

I don't think this map was randomly generated, but certainly the regions are supposed to be dictated by type of terrain they tend to have, so this will still result in specialization of cities.

You can rename your religion, but I think you can't do it while it is still only Tier 0/1.

 

[8housesofelixir]

In general, the current build of Humankind is a fun, flexible, and dynamic game. As one can tell from my "Cerro Rico" write-up, I really enjoy it.

On the other hand, there are still many things need balance out - mostly number tweakings - such as:
- Soft cap for Quarters, population, and military units, such as a cap you can violate but will give a large penalty;
- Maintenances and and other kinds of costs for Quarters, population, and military units, such as stability cost per population or money cost per Quarter;
- Increase the overall cost of spending money, eating food, using industry, etc., as currently a lot of yields are overflowing;
- Lower the requirements of civic choice unlocks;
- Balances for individual LT, EU, and EQs here and there.
I would imagine QA team of Amplitude and VIPs of the game become really busy in the following month.

Overall, the game has a solid basis to become a good game, it just needs a thorough polish. Looking forward to the full release.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I did one experimental game (only 75 turns) to see what effect a limitation on Quarter placement would have.

I tried a 'historical' limitation, in that in the Ancient and Classical (and Medieval, but didn't play much into that Era) you could only place Quarters adjacent to the City Center or up to one tile further away if connected to the City Center by a river or by coastline. That meant a basic non-river city could only have a maximum of 7 Quarters, but most cities placed on rivers or the coast could have 9 or 10.

The results:
Until the late Classical there wasn't much of a limitation on actual numbers of Quarters placed: between the Infrastructure to enhance the Quarters and Units and other constructions, there wasn't really enough time to build more than 6 - 9 Quarters in a city, even the original capital. On the other hand, the average yield per Quarter without enhancements from infrastructure was much lower, because I couldn't 'reach out' to get good adjacencies away from the City Center. On average, each Quarter was only producing about 2/3 to 1/2 the yields I could get with an Unlimited Lucy Build game.

On the other hand, my cities looked a lot more 'normal' and historical, and with the Extensions over Resources and Harbors and other 'distant' constructions even in the Ancient/Classical Eras there was still plenty of 'civilization' in my Regions.

Tentatively, then, by perhaps increasing the bonuses from Quarter-enhancing Infrastructure by a point of two we could get most of the same Yields/Quarter we have now, initial expansion a little slower until those Structures were built, City Sprawl delayed until the last half of the game (Early Modern/Industrial at the earliest) where it historically belongs, and much more realistic cities in the first half of the game.

Obviously I couldn't do it in the Build, but I think if Food were made a universal requirement for anything that required People: Quarters, Extensions, Units - with perhaps Extensions and Units requiring about 1/2 the Food that a city Quarter does, that could provide the 'soft cap' mentioned for construction in the early to mid-game.

 

[Atlas627]

I like that Food does not effect every advancement, though it is clearly WAY worse of a yield on a 1-to-1 basis with any other yield, so some numbers tweaking needs to be done.

I think your idea of "quarters can only be placed adjacent to Main Plaza/Administrative Center, or adjacent to *those* quarters" is a pretty reasonable restriction. Then Garrisons provide something else to build adjacent to in Ancient. Then Harbors provide something else to build adjacent to in Classical. Then Hamlets provide something else to build adjacent to in Medieval. Then in Early Modern you are allowed to build adjacent to Garrison/Harbor/Hamlet adjacencies, to enable colonies. Then in Industrial some tech allows you to ignore this requirement in Administered cities. Then in Contemporary some tech allows you to ignore this requirement entirely, perhaps with some resolution in the UN restricting this sprawl once again.

Rules like these change the entire play of the game from era to era, which is important for the feel of advancing through history. Just getting more/less of some yields (or increasing/decreasing costs) makes for a straightforward game, which feels more abstract and less dynamic.

While on the topic of "yay more yields...", I am not really feeling a difference between Production and Gold. Sure, Production is easier to get, and Gold is global, but I want some things you can do with each that you can't do with the other. Right now I can use Gold for everything I can use Production for, but Gold is also used to buy luxuries (at a clearly way-too-cheap price given how high the gold yields are), pay demands (clearly not enough gold for how devastating wars can be), counter-offer (this needs to scale somehow), and patronize Independent Peoples (cool). Anything I'm missing? Oh right, the most important one: Gold income gives Stars.

 

[mitsho]

While on the topic of "yay more yields...", I am not really feeling a difference between Production and Gold. Sure, Production is easier to get, and Gold is global, but I want some things you can do with each that you can't do with the other. Right now I can use Gold for everything I can use Production for, but Gold is also used to buy luxuries (at a clearly way-too-cheap price given how high the gold yields are), pay demands (clearly not enough gold for how devastating wars can be), counter-offer (this needs to scale somehow), and patronize Independent Peoples (cool). Anything I'm missing? Oh right, the most important one: Gold income gives Stars.

Shared projects like Wonders or Religious Sites (and presumably later Space Exploration). You can't rush them with Money.

But yes, they are incredibly similar. Mostly because it's so affordable to rush buy. In "the other game" the money is often needed for other things so you notice it less. That's by the way why I propose in my perfect game to mix money and production into one single yield. In the timespan used in these games, there's no difference. Make everything insta-built (quarters may take 1-3 turns to be finalised and large projects would need 1-10 charges). Why do we need both production and Money?

I think I liked all the other posts in here in my read through now because I agree with all the propositions. And they seem similar to what has been posted elsewhere so I'm confident that Amplitude will listen and we will get a gem of a game in four months.