[GS] The Ottomans Discussion Thread

[Lord Lakely]

https://twitter.com/EdBeach23/status/1088190881910439936?s=19

Hmmm. Which one? Poland?

hungary.

 

[ShakaKhan]

Pretty sure they wouldn't do this, but just wanted to check with you guys...

If you build a swordsman, he goes on his merry way swordsman-ing, then you get the tech and resources to upgrade to janissary, the city that built the swordsman doesn't lose a pop point, does it? Seems unlikely, but if there's a chance I'll lose half my pop by mass-upgrading, I'm not playing them. (or just disband and build the cheap things.)

 

[AmazonQueen]

Pretty sure they wouldn't do this, but just wanted to check with you guys...

If you build a swordsman, he goes on his merry way swordsman-ing, then you get the tech and resources to upgrade to janissary, the city that built the swordsman doesn't lose a pop point, does it? Seems unlikely, but if there's a chance I'll lose half my pop by mass-upgrading, I'm not playing them. (or just disband and build the cheap things.)

No certainty yet
Maybe upgraded units don't cause the pop loss, maybe it affects the original city, maybe it affects the city where the unit is upgraded, we don't know yet. We're not even sure if you can upgrade from swordsman to jannisary although my bet is yes.

 

[acluewithout]

Quick thoughts on Kebab:

Great Turkish Bombard: Siege units aren't as important this game because they're vulnerable and are somewhat replaced by the Battering Ram, but I often find myself building a few; getting better siege units while also getting them faster is nice. Also, getting a full pop city is potentially amazing--this could be kind of difficult to hold onto in the short term, since large cities can kind of be troublesome, but the long-term benefits way outweigh the short term annoyance. Also, the amenity and loyalty might offset that altogether, so we'll have to see how this works in action. Right now though, this seems pretty good.

Grand Vizier: This is either going to be incredible or inconsequential. I feel like we're overlooking just how many military bonuses the Ottomans get out of this one governor: this can potentially give your units +5 combat versus other units, and a whopping +15 combat strength versus a city he's stationed in (if I'm reading this right). That's just outright disgusting. He also gives you a bonus for constructing units, which will be really helpful throughout the whole game, while also giving the Ottomans a chance for early war before all their bonuses kick in. Additionally, he's a pretty good diplomatic governor, meaning that the Ottomans are in a similar vein of Persia, in that they can play the warmonger game without facing the diplomatic consequences. Of course, upgrading Ibrahim means forgoing upgrades for Magnus, Liang, Pingala, or Reyna, which are really important to the current Civ VI meta. We'll have to see if we can afford not upgrading them in favor of Ibrahim, but this has the potential to be a really strong ability; unique regardless, so I'm all for it.

Grand Bazaar: This seems like it's dependent on the context. Built in a city with a lot of luxes, it could be incredible. Otherwise, just decent. We'll have to see how impactful the strategic resource thing is, but I imagine that's a pretty decent extra chunk, even if it's only one. Seems good, but going to need hands on experience before I definitively say how good.

Janissary: Ok, this is the one where I have no idea what to think. Taking it at face value, holy crap it's amazing. More combat strength, a free promotion, and it being much cheaper? Yes please! However, that population cost aspect it carries is a real bummer. But, given the UA and low production cost, building it in conquered cities shouldn't be a problem. And since it's a Musketman replacement, it should be able to be upgraded into from Swordsmen. We'll have to see how it fares in practice, but the potential is really high here. It comes in the late mid-game though, so the delay could hurt it.

Barbary Corsairs: Ok, so we all know how good the Jong is due to it coming so early, so depending on where exactly the Corsair is located on the tech/civics tree, this could be an amazing unit. However, it's probably not as good as the Jong since the Jong has that easy to achieve combat bonus, but it still likely will be a tyrant on the seas. The pillaging bonus is particularly interesting, especially considering how pillaging rewards scale now, making doing so more worthwhile. Again, seems promising.

Overall, I think the Ottomans are going to be really fun to play, and could potentially be quite good. However, I don't think they're going to be top-tier, since most of the bonuses don't activate until the mid-game, and a lot of the really strong ones in here you're going to have to bend over backwards. However, Grant Vizier and GTB are potentially game-breaking in some regard, so we'll have to see how the Ottomans fare in the actual release.

As of right now, I think the current PR for the GS Civs is: Maori>Hungary>Inca>Sweden>Ottomans>Canada>Mali.

I agree with all this.

Some additional thoughts.

Great Turkish Bombard. Let’s see if all the balancing that’s going on buffs Seige. To my mind, Seige don’t need much of a buff to be really good. If Seige do get a leg up at some point, this UA would be awesome.

Ottomans v Spain. I think the “fun” of Civs like the Ottomans and Spain is that their military advantages come late. So, you warmonger when it’s kinda of harder more challenging to do so. Of course, Ottomans do get early bonuses via Governor and their coastal raider might be intended to let them slow down opponents and steal yields (like Norway) until their good stuff comes on line. I’m not a fan of domination victories, but Ottomams do look fun.

Unique Governor. I like the mechanics and having to choose between your UG and the normal Governors is interesting (similar to Sweden having to choose between its UB and normal second tier plaza buildings). But, Ottoman’s UG just emphasises to me how bland the Governor system is - particularly the way everyone chooses between the same bland Governors and ends up broadly selecting the same governors and same promotions. The basic mechanics are solid, but the visualisation is so bland and the game play is too. Why can’t I have more than one “Diplomat” or “Science Guy”? Why can’t I put my Diplomats into other Civ’s Cities? How can multiple Civs have Victor? Etc #onemoreexpansion

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

That, Hungary, Russia, Egypt/Arabia or Persia. Are there any other enemies I forgot about?

You forgot the Byzantines...oh wait.
Maybe they will make a surprise return. I can dream.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

First listen.

I like it in general. But it seems inappropriate to put the Janissary military band music at atomic era. I would have used that one for medieval and moved the ones from medieval to industrial and one from industrial to atomic.

 

[Pietato]

So for any ancient start they will face the same issues as other later civs as being vanilla until T100+

This is incorrect. They have a unique governor.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I would agree the Tudors were much more competent than the Stuarts. Henry VII whilst not charismatic was very intelligent and his hamstringing the nobility after the War of the Roses was important for Tudor power.

Unfortunately, the Tudors failed to produce Heirs, which is fatal Incompetence in a hereditary Monarchy. . .

And for everybody's benefit, the Fronde in France was basically a Noble's revolt. What kept it from happening again was that Louis XIV gave his nobles the Right and Privilege of leading his regiments, and during the wars from 1690 to 1715 they got shot down in droves by the English and Dutch, and in every case Louis got to approve their heirs in their titles. By the end of the War of the Spanish Succession, there was scarcely a noble family in France who's head didn't owe his position directly and personally to the king. So, naturally, they all followed the monarchy loyally into Oblivion when the revolution came. . .

 

[Zaarin]

And for everybody's benefit, the Fronde in France was basically a Noble's revolt. What kept it from happening again was that Louis XIV gave his nobles the Right and Privilege of leading his regiments, and during the wars from 1690 to 1715 they got shot down in droves by the English and Dutch, and in every case Louis got to approve their heirs in their titles.

Apparently he learned something from the story of Uriah the Hittite; it was just the wrong something.

 

[Navelgazer]

Mmm. The design is good but one thing thus really bugs me is the name of the abilities.

Great Turkish Bombard? More than 700 years of history and that’s all they could come up with to represent the civilisation?

I half-expected "Sick Man of Europe" as a malus making them lose cities more easily to lack of happiness/loyalty.

 

[Sostratus]

Of course this unit is an upgrade - if Firaxis had wanted it not to be an upgrade from the swordsmen, they'd just make it a unique unit like the Keshig which doesn't have a generic counterpart rather than a musketman replacement. Pretty sure every unit that replaces a main upgrade tree unit is available as an upgrade, and the musketman is on an important upgrade path.

I actually think the Janissaries will be monsters. 60 base strength means that if you slot oligarchic legacy you have a 64 strength unit. This, ever so conveniently, is the strength of the current top of the industrial food chain: the cuirassier. (Excepting some unique cav units.) Even at 60 they are no slouches in the industrial. But you also have a free promo. I'm not sure if that applies on modernizing them from swords, but, it's one promotion faster to +1 movement and Urban warfare.

Cost wise is where I think they went too far. In the video, Uppsala was had 5.3 production and could build a pike&shot in 48 turns, implying heavily that pike and shot are still 250 base production. Muskets are 240 base, and the Janissary was shown in video as 120 base on standard speed. (I mentioned the pike and shot to demonstrate they likely haven't changed the costs of renaissance units.)
Pikes suck but Impis are amazing because they are cheap. Ottoman Janissaries literally cost HALF of a musket. And knowing the ottomans, they probably gave them a niter start bias. So even if you don't build that many, upgrading will cost pennies: swords only cost 30 production less. Even if janissary production is gated by niter, that is still 120 production you can spend on something else.

I believe you guys are not taking the new strategic resource system into account enough. GS is not R&F! One single source of iron won't be sufficient any more to field a whole army and it is very possible that there is simply not enough material around to build as many Swordsmen as desired. Or at least not as quick as desired.

From what they have said, basically an iron deposit will give +2 iron per turn, and swords take 20 iron on standard speed to be built. So you're limited to 1 sowrd per 10 turns per mine. Now, the existence of a card "Equestrian orders" heavily implies there will be a slew of cards so you can bump that iron mine up to +3. This means a sword every 6-7 turns, per mine. If you have two iron mines it will be pretty easy to build them. The issue is that you cannot now just upgrade your whole army in one turn unless you have a large stockpile (need encampments,) so it buffers the advantage of getting say, muskets 15 turns before someone else. Later strategics resources - coal, oil, aluminum, uranium, almost certainly have larger resources per deposit or late game systems would be dysfunctional.

Great Turkish Bombard. Let’s see if all the balancing that’s going on buffs Seige. To my mind, Seige don’t need much of a buff to be really good. If Seige do get a leg up at some point, this UA would be awesome.

I mean its like they have the mythical siege unit production card as a permanent bonus. The extra strength is great too. I can see my siege really taking a bite out of raiding ships as coastal defenses (siege do full damage to ships while ranged gets the penalty.)
I quite enjoy that they went with a more "methodical city taking and occupation" focus of warmongering than "kill more" bonuses. Ibrahim being an offensive military governor is just great and Serasker is one of the greatest promotions of all time. You can have it unlocked before you even get to political philosophy since it's first tier, and it gives you +10 within 10 tiles which is most of an empire at that point. +50% damage to cities and encampments for all units! You don't even need the UUs to go nuts, just walk up with a ram or siege tower and enjoy the free urban warfare promo. It also puts ranged units in a special zone- they go from -17 (half damage) to -7 (more like .7x damage) which makes them much more viable to shoot at defenses without incendiaries. And ranged units are resource less. And you get those great benefits to actually holding the cities once you capture them!

 

[Leathaface]

I actually think the Janissaries will be monsters. 60 base strength means that if you slot oligarchic legacy you have a 64 strength unit. This, ever so conveniently, is the strength of the current top of the industrial food chain: the cuirassier. (Excepting some unique cav units.) Even at 60 they are no slouches in the industrial. But you also have a free promo. I'm not sure if that applies on modernizing them from swords, but, it's one promotion faster to +1 movement and Urban warfare.

The Janissaries could be a very big threat alright if the Ottomans are your next door neighbour in GS, which I like. I hope the Ottoman AI is smart enough to use Oligarchy legacy for extra strength. Having to invest in strong troops to defend against them is something I would like to have to do rather than just focusing on Science, built 5 or 6 troops and coast to a Science victory.

 

[PhilBowles]

This is incorrect. They have a unique governor.

And better, cheaper catapults and no population reduction from city conquests - which said catapults make easier before turn 100.

 

[Kaan Boztepe]

Eagle Pursuit said: ↑
https://twitter.com/EdBeach23/status/1088190881910439936?s=19

Hmmm. Which one? Poland?

venice surely , wait this isnt civ V right?

 

[Deggial]

Minor point and side question:
Will English 'Ottomans' be correctly localized into German 'Osmanen', or are the two terms too close and the difference will slip the translation team/QA?

Any bets?

 

[Siptah]

Minor point and side question:
Will English 'Ottomans' be correctly localized into German 'Osmanen', or are the two terms too close and the difference will slip the translation team/QA?

Any bets?

It was correct in earlier games, right? I can remember it being wrong in Cossacks where it said Ottomanen, but not in civ. Would have been especially weird in civ III, when Osman would lead the Ottomanisches Reich.

 

[Uberfrog]

Minor point and side question:
Will English 'Ottomans' be correctly localized into German 'Osmanen', or are the two terms too close and the difference will slip the translation team/QA?

Any bets?

I seem to remember it being correct in Civ IV at least (I sometimes played in German to "practise" for high school ), and that was the game that gave us the bizarre demonym "Malinese"....

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Both UUs are great. The early Privateer is so good, given Privateers doesn't cost resource and unlock at Mercanaries I guess. (Poor Jung, now they cost nitre and not early now).

The musket UU depend on nitre. Its cost is good, but as for muskets nobody care about prod cost, but the number of nitre. Anyway, +5 base strength is very good.

The UA is also good. The Unique governor provides +15 strength altogether when attacking that city. It's +15! Although it takes 5 turns for him to establish so may only work for 1~2 cities per civ. But that's +15 siege strength, combined with UA, +20.

Extra amenity and loyalty is very good in R & F, but may not be that good in GS since the city takes longer to rebel, lowering the"rebel-- pillage--capture--fix" cycle efficiency. Hope the cycle can be fixed.

The UB is at least cheaper( 220 prod vs. 290) than banks.

 

[Leathaface]

TBH I don't think the bonus production to Siege units is useful until your opponent researches Steel. Battering Ram are so OP that you don't need Siege units, just pair a battering ram with a melee unit, attack the city 3 times with melee units and the walls are down in 1 turn.

I hope battering rams get a big nerf in GS.

 

[SmashPig5]

I'd like to point out that, in the first look video when the Janissary is built to demonstrate the pop. loss at 0:45 - 0:46, the nitre count in the top bar actually increases (as in, they get nitre at the end of the turn from their mines), but what's notable is that it doesn't go down by, 20 I think is the norm, suggesting that the Janissary takes no nitre to build perhaps? Or at least far less in accordance with their half production cost of a musketman. This would make a Janissary time push superior to most other kinds of pushes that will now potentially be limited by resources.

EDIT: I've also come to the potential conclusion that building a unit that requires a resource does not actually use up the resource, but merely requires it in stock, as the Janissary tool tip in the build menu says "requires 20 nitre"