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The Panopticon Wonder Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by pineappledan, May 1, 2018.


Do you like the idea of the Panopticon being in VP?

  1. It's a great idea

    20 vote(s)
  2. It's fine

    9 vote(s)
  3. I don't care

    9 vote(s)
  4. I don't like it; I think the CV wonder should be something else

    29 vote(s)
  5. I don't like it; I think CV shouldn't even have a wonder

    12 vote(s)
  1. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

    Dec 9, 2017
    There's nothing stopping you from making concrete 'wonder' suggestions. I'm interested in what you can come up with.
  2. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

    Sep 11, 2017
    @Noob Fanboy A lot of the things you talk about are concerning specific situations and policies of your country, which I know nothing about and frankly I don't wanna start reading up on Colombia just for some online discussion; I'm not trying to fix problems in your country.
    I got into this because I didn't want "border dissolution" as the Freedom-specific CV-wonder in the mod and argued that it is the product of left wing ideology and not foundational to the West in any way.
    I have shown that there is a biological basis for behavior and political opinion, that this is a human universal and thus not specific to any culture, that it has to do with the perception of borders around categories of ideas, things, concepts and so on and that either extreme is bad.

    I have recognized some time ago that arguing with ideologues is pointless as they are too blinded by their warped world view to accept rational arguments; you say that "Capitalism is going to fall in the entire world if we have another big depression, and the consequences will be big everywhere" while we just had a big, global financial crisis 10 years ago and somehow the First World is still the First World, the predominant economic system is still capitalism on all continents and people are as wealthy as they've never been before globally.
    Your views are based in resentment because you don't have it as good as other people and instead of working to change that you choose to blame them for your misery; you say "Companies that invest in our country don't care about the population [...or...] about the environmental results" as if other people are somehow responsible for your own well being without recognizing that it is you, your family and your community (and your government that you elect) who have the responsibility of improving your country, your society and yourselves.
    And finally you compare human societies to an open source project, while failing to recognize that the people who made things like Linux possible are people who have accepted their burden in life and worked hard to create something for themselves and others instead of spewing hatred toward those more fortunate than them; meanwhile developers are leaving open source projects (here is the latest example) because of people like you moving in to establish Neo-Marxist doctrine, discriminating against so-called oppressors (who are the ones doing all the work btw. and often for free) and trying to ruin their lives; it is absolutely disgusting that you would try to claim open-source-projects as examples of "socialist practices"; those projects have no similarity with socialism whatsoever as they do not attempt to impose anything on anyone, they don't accuse people of not contributing and they don't care where you come from, what your skin color is or how much money you have.

    My one hope with regards to this conversation is that at least one person has read what I had to say and considered the examples and data I have given and maybe done some research and thinking of their own to come to a better understanding about the nature of our tribulations and the current state of affairs. If that is the case I would ask that person to keep thinking for yourself, don't listen to the ideologues and propagandists and spread the word about what our Western ideals are and why they are important...the West is under assault and we are all counting on you.
  3. Noob Fanboy

    Noob Fanboy Warlord

    Dec 25, 2017
    Spoiler :

    Just like i don't think communism means social control, border dissolution is related to the west when you get international companies exploiting natural resources everywhere. Maybe you're just seeing the coin from one side.

    So, now "I have recognized some time ago that arguing with ideologues is pointless as they are too blinded by their warped world view to accept rational arguments" is just a educated way of saying "neo-marxism bs". Having different points of view doesn't mean one point of view is rational and the other no. Each point of view have points, and unless we understand the position of each side of the coin, we're never going to get anywhere. Of course, global financial crisis was 10 years ago, but that doesn't mean we're always going to have the economical tools to stop a financial crisis. Different economic schools have different point of views, while the neoliberal school (International Monetary Fund) says we have the means to stop it. Other economical schools (marxist, neoclassical) don't agree on that.

    Nobody can predict the future, so i'm free to say capitalism is going to fall if we have another big depression, because even neoliberalist can't guarentee is never going to happen again.

    Political system is very related to the economical system. And of course, views change when you're in a different country, that's normal. In some countries we can see certain problems that in other countries you don't see, and like that, you can change your point of view. You're speaking theorical beauties about external corporate inversion, i'm seeing the consequences of it (explotation, unleal competence, association with corrupt government), its a big difference.

    You associate socialism with "imposing things to people", it's a very biased point of view. Communism is about common ownership of the means of production. Source code, in open source, is free to be modified by anyone, source code is owned by the community (common ownership). And thanks to the idea of code owned by the community, we have a lot of technological tools right now. It's just natural to see the similarities.

    If you keep demonizing different points of view, you're not going to get to anything, you're only going to give more reason to "leftists", since their big argument is: "You don't know about the theory enough" while they keep gaining more and people thanks to access to information, the West is under assault because of the west failure to recognize their own problems.

  4. Tekamthi

    Tekamthi Prince

    Aug 12, 2016
    is the tech addition to the cv truly necessarily? does this not risk making it somewhat of a hybrid-sv? same concerns really with making a congress/UN thing
    Blue Ghost likes this.
  5. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Feb 11, 2016
    Malaga (Spain)
    There's another solution I proposed a few weeks ago: make tech and policies cost scale equally among different difficulties, so it's only the human players who can research and get policies faster. But it comes with its own drawbacks, and G dislikes them.

    For those not aware. Research speed is much slower in easier difficulties, while cultural speed isn't. This results in untimed victory conditions when not picking Emperor difficulty, which is the difficulty all victories are timed around.
    The big trigger for this change has been other, though. Cultural victory, since tourism can come from historical events, can happen long before the other victories, even when not going for it. G addressed this problem by requiring an Ideology for the cultural victory, but it still happens, it happens too early and unexpected.

    Yes, you can link it to a later technology like Telecommunications, but that does not solve the problem of different victory timings. By linking the unlock for cultural victory to other victory condition signals (someone's built Apollo program, for example), we are ensuring that cultural victories are achieved before any other victory, but not too early, no matter the chosen difficulty. Also, we are giving the cultural player something to do once the other civs have been influenced, and other victory conditions can delay their triggers on purpose when a cultural player is about to win.

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