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The power of Kremlin

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by enKage, Sep 8, 2015.

  1. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Hello,

    I've encountered another thread, where Kremlin was said one of the top wonders. I admit I never use it. Mainly because US is rather rare civic, as Rep is supeerior in terms of space games and slavery does not win the competition with caste late in the game.
    I also think there is very little to build late in the game when factories add quite a lot production.

    Can anybody explain how exactly use Kremlin?

    When I consider this I end with these conlusions:
    1) When running caste and SP: caste adds +33% and +25% hammers for workshops, but only workshops. While working also windmills and hills it ends up with more production with slavery rush"buy". But whipping late is not effective as regrow takes ages.
    2) With FM and food corpo, caste seems to be obligatory. OTOH it suports also whipping, as regrows are quick and by whipping one can produce specialist slots anyway.
    But in both cases there is still 1 question: WHAT to hurry?
    3) I see the point of rushbuying of some crucial wonders, but there are few wonders late in the game. Probably WallStreet is the best to rush buy, but who builds WallStreet? Still I think there is no way of doing it before Christo Redentor, because terms of not running representation should be close to minimum.
    4) The last use of Kremlin I see is a serie of whipping (without constructing buildings) in 5-turn between revolutions to store overflows with wealth running. In this way most of cheap spaceparts can be completely prebuilt so they can be finished in 1 turn. But there is huge population hit, doesnt matter so much in huge empire, but definitely a hit to middle sized.

    Can anybody explain the real power of Kremlin? As I said I never build it so simply don't know. Aly link to a game writup when Kremlin is used much will be appreciated
     
  2. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Some cases (I'm sure there are more).

    1. Late game war. Whip cheap rifles, cannons, cavalry, infantry for a quick army. You can get massive overflow with Kremlin, so even with expensive units they'll steam out of your cities fast.

    2. Corps in particularly space games. With Kremlin you can 2-pop cold whip executives, which means you should be able to spread to 4-5 new cities every turn with relatively low hits to your economy.

    3. Sort of as above, but you can drop into US for a short stint to rush-buy important wonders like National Park, Wall Street, Ironworks.

    4. It's also useful to get up lots of buildings pretty fast in new-ish cities. Again, this does perhaps apply mostly to space games, where you'll eventually have lots of surplus food from Sushi, so the cities will regrow fast, and with Kremlin, you'll get a lot of bang for your cold-hearted murders whips.

    5. Less relevant probably, but you also get cheap workers and settlers. Could perhaps apply in a domination game where you need to fill out the land to tip over the edge.

    In short, Kremlin is an incredibly powerful wonder. It does come late, however, so it's not for every game, but if your game does last long, it's often well worth to build it. Would say it's mostly for non-stop whipping and space colony games.

    Try it. You'll be amazed how good it is to easily 2-pop whip cannons and even infantry, often with big overflows.
    Also useful to quickly get out factories and coal plants, for all those hammer multipliers.
     
  3. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    On sheer power level, the Kremlin is probably the top wonder.
    What it does is much like the Bureaucracy civic, in that it applies before multipliers.

    Effect :
    "-33% hurry production cost "

    This is to say that where you'd normally whip 3 population points, you can whip only 2.
    This is to say that when you whip 1 population point, you get the yield you'd normally get by whipping 1,5.

    The Kremlin offers you a +50% production bonus before multipliers come into effect.

    So, on normal speed, a Kremlin whip would yield 45 hammers.

    Now, say you have a Forge and are running Police State,
    Whipping a pop point towards a unit yields a tremendous 67,5 hammers.
    Whipping 2 pop points would yield 135 hammers, which is more than what a Cavalry costs... (!)


    The production boost is immense and doesn't compare with the +1 hammer from Caste System workshops (for a thing, you never work full shops, whereas the Kremlin applies everywhere ; for another, it is +50% production).

    What you do with the extra production is up to you. Building troops comes to mind.
    It's noticeable that the Kremlin comes at about the same time as Biology farms, which are a revolution to Slavery, in their own right.



    Link for a good Kremlin map with stone in BFC.
     
  4. ikotomi

    ikotomi Prince

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    Whipping late game is also useful because the cities you conquer tend to be much larger and starve away their population anyways when they come out of anarchy. Might as well get a ton of free production instantly.
     
  5. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    In games that go into industrial era and later (i. e. game on large map and Quick speed) , Biology Farms and Kremlin-whips are the ultimate form of getting production, there's nothing more effecient.

    Pangaea already summed up most or all other cases afaik.
     
  6. Bjarkov

    Bjarkov Chieftain

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    i want to play as gandhi of the aztecs now
     
  7. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    OK, I understand the math, but there is little practical info. I also understand war issues. But what about typical space game, when you usually have most of land already you need?

    As was mentioned, it can make corpo spread quicker - but to a level that justifies soo much hammer efort?
    It also speeds up factories - but with mining corp yu can build them fast anyway and basicallly only production sites, rich with hammers need it.
    It speeds National Park - I used to get Biology much before communism and NP is already built (I just prefer GE rush)

    The link posted as an example is only a map. Has anyone known about a writeup of a complete Kremlin focused game?
     
  8. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    I see, I probably misundertood your OP. Sorry about that.
    I agree the link I posted doesn't go in depth with the use of the Kremlin. I thought about it because it is a map that requires a lot of late-game production. But it was a poor link, I agree.


    First thing, the Kremlin doesn't do anything special : it just adds an enormous bonus towards "hurrying production".
    This is why I was reluctant to address what to do with that production. The bonus is very generic.
    Therefore, I don't think either that it's a sound strategy to plan and play a "complete Kremlin focused game". That would be like playing a "complete Forges focused game" - that wouldn't make much sense.
    I don't think the Kremlin dictates what to do out of whips/rushbuys. It's rather the game's situation and the player's objectives.
    If anything, one can skew its tile improvements to get a little more farms or cottages than he would otherwise.


    Second thing, does the Kremlin require "so much hammer effort" ?
    Honestly, I don't think it does.
    The Kremlin costs 400 hammers with stone. It comes at a time when it's probably a 7-15 turns build. Note : those hammers are concentrated in a single city.
    For payback, the Kremlin adds 15 base hammers to any whip. 400/15 = 26,666.
    Therefore, if you have 27 cities, build the Kremlin and whip only once each of your cities, then you've already made up for the Kremlin's cost. Note : now you've spread the hammers concentrated in a single city over your whole Empire.
    --> The larger the Empire, the faster the Wonder can payoff. If it can payoff in a single turn... what about 50 ?
    --> The wonder can act like an equalizer, much like the Hanging Gardens that can produce hammers from Slavery and spread them accross the Empire... except that the Kremlin's bonus can be used over and over. This is especially useful to develop newly found cities and newly conquered ones : cities that need a lot of infrastructure set up.


    This is all very good and general but you bring up the particular case of what seems to be an ongoing game.
    - you already have the land you need.
    - Therefore, you don't need any military production.
    - Do you already have the infrastructure you need ?
    - you're heavily workshopped and running Caste System as a long term plan.


    So I understand you're running a low-infra, low-commerce economy and rely heavily on building Research and Wealth.
    That's certainly a valid approach to a space race.

    I suspect you also have a Vassal or several and, thus, don't need to develop their land/cities. Right ?

    Then, do you need the Power of the Kremlin ?
    Probably not, indeed.
    The Kremlin would shine with later war and a more infrastructure focused approach, where you spam commerce multipliers.

    Just because the wonder is powerful, doesn't mean it belongs to every game.


    That still don't cover archetypes, which you seem to be interested in.
    I don't think I can do that. Sorry, maybe you'll find my post is off the track. Maybe someone will take on archetypal economies.
    It's much easier for me to consider : "What's it doing and do I want it ?"

    :)
     
  9. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    So if I understand you right, it still pays back even in terms of pure commerce just by fe. whipping universities everywhere, just before elctricity commerce bonus to windmills/watermills.

    Correct strategy for Stateproperty space approach should be: Biology --> grow cities as much as possible on farms, Communism --> Kremlin, revolt to slav+SP, whip libs+unis everywhere where hills and rivers available, workshop every flat, windmill every riverside, windmill every hill. Electricity --> regain research lost to not working wealth/research and specialists by having commerce bonus to mills.
    Right?
     
  10. ikotomi

    ikotomi Prince

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    It's hard to map a "standard" game, but even in a space race game, why stop fighting just at communism? You should still have a lot of cavs, infantry, etc. and you're close to unlocking key units like flight and tanks. You don't *have* to in order to win, but getting new land is still better since you have a lot of game left, and Kremlin makes the economic recovery that much faster.

    If you're really committed to peace, you can whip the buildings that have more long term benefits, because the tradeoff is just wealth rather than units. Whipping a workshopped grasslands tile with Kremlin is still very strong, as the whip gets you 45 hammers now, while a caste system workshop gives you 45 hammers over 9 turns.

    If you have truly built everything worth building, it sounds like the game is effectively over.
     
  11. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    I rather meant that you maybe didn't need the Kremlin, since you didn't need to hurry much production.

    Is it worth spamming Libraries/Universities/Observatories to multiply the bonus commerce from wind/watermills ? I wouldn't think so.
    Those buildings are very expensive. It would be different if you had heavily cottaged your land and/or were planning to fund Sushi + run loads of Representation specialists.
    Even if running Workshops + Sushi specs, it's not clear to me that mass Universities would be desirable.

    If we're mostly looking at shops and State Property, then it's all about hammer buildings : factories, levees and some form of power.

    In this sense, it might still make sense to invest in the Kremlin, to speed up those hammer buildings.
    I suppose it depends on the number of cities you have. But if you're done with your conquest and are still on your way to Steam Power, then the Kremlin can certainly pay off.

    It would be better not to suffer from Anarchy if you switch into Slavery.
    If the switch costs you Anarchy, then you should consider hammering out Levees and Factories in the old way. It's certainly an alternative to whipping.


    Sorry, I can't give you any definitive answer on what the optimal path can be :)
    The usual difficulty with State Property space races is that they're denied a late game beaker explosion. The tech rate usually reaches a plateau.
    However, this is somewhat made up by the low maintenance and instant speed at which workshops provide their benefits. The setup is faster and cheaper than that of commerce and infrastructure hungry games.

    What I can say is that your game doesn't seem suited to make the best out of the Kremlin (no need to build "army + heavy infrastructure").
    It doesn't mean the wonder would be a poor investment, though, if you can afford the civic switches.
    --> Now that I'm running in circles -->

    good luck !


    @ ikotomi :
    I believe that enKage is very near the Domination limit and is reluctant to conquer more.
     
  12. ikotomi

    ikotomi Prince

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    I was more thinking about the gold buildings like markets and grocers. They are rather nice buildings but not that great while your cities are small because you needed to whip for production. When in caste, those merchant specialists start looking rather nice, especially with representation.

    I'll have to pass on whether university is worth it outside of philo leaders. I still think at the time Kremlin comes in that there are enough turns left such that it'll make space victory faster if you're done building everything else, but obviously this applies mainly to your cottage cities which probably already built one to unlock Oxford.

    In general, I find most of the game there is enough production you still want to make Kremlin powerful. If you're done building or the game is almost over, then it's kind of a moot issue.
     
  13. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    First I need to correct something from BiC, building / whipping :science: multipliers is definitely worth it in very many or even the major number of cases, even so late in the game, when going for Space. Every city has TRs, those are pure :commerce: , then all the extra :commerce: from Rivers and the Cottages that one still has from times before Workshops became good. Cities in Spaceraces are likely to reach sizes of 20-30 with Sushi, the TRs alone are often enough to justify the :science: multipliers, even in the new world cities which get founded even later and need even more time to get to the point, where starting on a :science: multiplier is the best choice.

    The Kremlin is an awesome wonder in Spaceraces. You calculated yourself, that only 27 whips are needed for it to pay back, that's nothing, I got as many cities in Spaceraces on small maps already. I also whip a lot more than once / city once I got it. Your first statement (that the Kremlin is an awesome and maybe even the most powerful wonder) is a lot closer, to how good the Kremlin really is.

    1. It doesn't make you spread a Corp quicker, it makes you spread a corp at better :hammers: efficiency. Spreading a corp with cold-whips is optimal, and Kremlin is what allows it. On non-Marathon speeds, every cold-whipped Exec would cost you 5-pop, with Kremlin it's 3-pop, on Marathon it's even only 2, just think about how much population that is, with needing 2+ Execs / city.

    2. It doesn't speed up Factories, it makes whipping them more :hammers: efficient. Whipping Factories is something I don't do usually though or not in more than maybe 30-50% of the cities. I calculate those things, sometimes whipping a Factory is advisable, sometimes not. What you say is true, Mining gets you everything very fast. A whip sometimes still is better, because then, you get it instant, and a +75% :hammers: bonus of a city, even if it's only for a few number of turns, still often is huge.

    3. GE-rushing the NP is a waste. GE-rush the Kremlin, GE-rush the WS, but not the NP, that one is way too cheap, it can easily be built normally, if Windmilling / Workshopping the tiles that don't have Forests. You can even whip the NP when spreading Sushi to the city where you build it.

    1. is the most important, you greatly underestimate just how many :hammers: building the Kremlin actually saves you, and how good it is to still whip even late and with :hammers: improvements and Mining. To give you an impression of just how much cold-whipping Execs gives you, cold-whipping Execs doubles the speed at which you expand your Corporations. You have 2.5 cities more with Corporations after one turn, that's already 2.5 * about 40 :hammers: so about 100 :hammers: . If you have 30 cities, you need 12T with normal whips, but you only need 6 with cold-whips, that's 6T 40 :hammers: * 30 cities (excuse if this calculation is wrong) so 7200 :hammers: . A cold-whip is costs 50% more, so 30 Execs (only know Marathon costs atm.) which cost 200 :hammers: each would cost 6000 :hammers: , with cold-whipping they cost 9000 :hammers: but you get 7200 :hammers: by doing so, so you have a netto benefit of 4200 :hammers: because of whipping cold!

    Hth.
     
  14. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Right, I neglected Trade routes, which may warrant investing in commerce multipliers, provided there are enough commerce tiles to go with them (wind & water mills, here ; not sure he has dedicated commerce cities, apart, probably, from the capital).

    You also make a good point about whipping Factories. One has to be sure they provide enough bonus before doing so. Whipping Levees should make a lot more sense.

    :)

    Other than that, I'm under the impression that enKage wants to go to space in the lightest setup :
    - without Corporations (State Property) ;
    - without heavy cottaging (shops heavy).

    i.e. mostly hammer economy.
    I'm not sure where he fits specialists into that but I'm sure he's planning to get his Golden Ages going.
     
  15. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    @ BiC:

    I wrote that one has Cottages from the times before Workshops become good. One usually has them in the major number of cities, the one where one built them onesself, and the AIs also build a lot of them, and one 1. usually doesn't has enough Workers to re-specialize everything and 2. building a Workshop over a Village or Town would be rather dumb, unless in a city that will produce an SS-Part, then one would pre-built the WS and finish it on the turn on which the city starts to build it. It's not about having "commerce-cities" , it's about building the best improvement available at one time. In the beginning, there is nothing better than Cottages, in the end, Workshops are better. Specializing cities is good, but the way you describe is differently than I do it, I build Cottages in a city early, and later I build Workshops in the same city. You can read about this in my guide about city-specialization if you need detailed infos.

    Specialist are a very good point btw., as the :science: of those also gets multiplied.

    The larger number of HoF players btw. agrees on that going for Corporations is better than using State Property in Spaceraces. Tbh., I don't know one Deity-player using a Workshop-only State Property approach atm.. There are certain settings with which State Property is probably the better choice than Corporations, like like map and weak leader, because in that scenario, one won't get a lot of Corporation-resources, but in the scenarios where Sushi gives 20+ :food: and Mining gives 30+ :hammers: , it really does wonders.
    I also didn't understand enKage in the way, that he doesn't use Corporations, as he wrote that he uses Mining to speed up buildings, and if he builds Universities, that's no minimalistic approach.
     
  16. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    @ Seraiel, you misunderstood me. I use either SP or corpo, depending on mapscript or land.

    @Ikotomi
    The reason I stop warring at some points is huge empire + leaving enough research power to some AIs for trading techs

    Always nice to know new things. Spaceraces are long games, so noone is able to find best approach on his own.
    Because not always game goes to late wonders, I am really glad to see your opinions on them. I used to think of HooverDam a weak one, after some replies I moved it to middlepower. Now I have some clues to start a spacegame and change some lategame habits to try late hardwhipping.


    What I think now is starting kind comprehensive guide to wonders in Strategy forums, the one that exists is very poor. I definitely think Guides to (any era) wonders should be there
     

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