The Rights of Men

[brennan]

Unlikely if his idea of an ideological middle ground is everyone believing in the patriarchy.

 

[Samson]

I thought here was an appropriate place to post this. From the beeb:

The first female chief of business lobby group the CBI has criticised business dinners as "not very inclusive" for women.

Carolyn Fairbairn said she had rarely stayed to the end of such corporate functions because she was bringing up her three children.

Along with sporting events, the black-tie dinners are seen as places to do business, she said.

But she has "never been a fan", and added that "a lot of women aren't".

"They'd rather go home to their families in the evening,"

This is the head of the CBI, and she seems to be under the impression that men actually WANT to work long into the evening, rather than doing it because they have to. Does she really think there is something different about men and women that women with children cannot do without seeing them on an evening when man can?

 

[bhavv]

That article is pretty much a whole load of paranoia. OMG MEN CAN STAY OUT LATE AND WOMEN CANT, OBVIOUSLY THEY ARE DOING THIS JUST TO PLOT AGAINST WOMEN!!!11111oneoneone.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Before anyone else makes the point (as I'm sure they would), this isn't really a men's rights issue...

 

[Flying Pig]

I thought here was an appropriate place to post this. From the beeb:

This is the head of the CBI, and she seems to be under the impression that men actually WANT to work long into the evening, rather than doing it because they have to. Does she really think there is something different about men and women that women with children cannot do without seeing them on an evening when man can?

She seems to be making the argument on two fronts, neither of which I find particularly convincing. The first is that women generally have to look after children - but then promoting a sticking-plaster measure rather than using this as a chance to speak up for breaking the division between motherhood and careers seems like a fantastic waste. The second (perhaps implicit) is that women simply aren't good at late-night social events, which seems to be accepting rather than challenging the stereotype.

 

[Samson]

She seems to be making the argument on two fronts, neither of which I find particularly convincing. The first is that women generally have to look after children - but then promoting a sticking-plaster measure rather than using this as a chance to speak up for breaking the division between motherhood and careers seems like a fantastic waste. The second (perhaps implicit) is that women simply aren't good at late-night social events, which seems to be accepting rather than challenging the stereotype.

I kind of got the impression that she thought that men do this sort of thing because they want to, that they would rather be out on a working dinner than at home with their family. I do not understand how you get to be head of the CBI thinking that way.

 

[warpus]

Doesn't the UK have equal maternity / paternity leave laws in place? If so, what the hell is she complaining about? This is something everybody has to deal with. Work it out with your partner.

If the UK doesn't have such laws, nevermind. But that is not the right way to complain about the problem.

 

[Samson]

Doesn't the UK have equal maternity / paternity leave laws in place? If so, what the hell is she complaining about? This is something everybody has to deal with. Work it out with your partner.

If the UK doesn't have such laws, nevermind. But that is not the right way to complain about the problem.

Not equal, but nothing that would make it easier for a man than a women who has been at work all day to carry that into the evening.

I put my understanding of the laws in this post.

 

[warpus]

That is definitely something both genders need to make a stink about, then! Making maternity & paternity leave equal for both genders would alleviate both the problems this woman is facing at her job, as well as allowing men to be more involved in the lives and upbringing of their children. As well as helping to put more gender roles to bed.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

It wouldn't help in this situation though because, as she's talking about bringing up three children, presumably at least 2 of them are out of the maternity leave window anyway, unless she had triplets. Plus, it's in the evening so unless her partner works nights or is also out at another function then he presumably wouldn't need leave to be at home at that time anyway.

 

[Samson]

That is definitely something both genders need to make a stink about, then! Making maternity & paternity leave equal for both genders would alleviate both the problems this woman is facing at her job, as well as allowing men to be more involved in the lives and upbringing of their children. As well as helping to put more gender roles to bed.

I see this as unrelated to the parental leave issue. This is basically saying that once people are back at work, it is easier for a man to work all evening and not see his family than it is for a woman. And that is sexist.

 

[warpus]

I don't think I understand. If maternity and paternity leave times were equal in all regards, how would this situation affect one gender worse than the other?

edit: oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, I think she's just saying whatever she can think of in order to complain. If you have kids you're going to have to deal with them, tough luck. Next time don't have kids maybe.

It wouldn't help in this situation though because, as she's talking about bringing up three children, presumably at least 2 of them are out of the maternity leave window anyway, unless she had triplets. Plus, it's in the evening so unless her partner works nights or is also out at another function then he presumably wouldn't need leave to be at home at that time anyway.

Yeah but I mean in that scenario she would face the exact same issues if she were a man. wouldn't she? Or, what am I missing?

 

[Flying Pig]

She's working on the unstated assumption that it's the mother's job to look after the child, so the woman 'has to' get home in a way that the man doesn't. I think that's a problem in itself.

 

[warpus]

Assuming that the maternity/paternity laws are equal for both genders, this would then become a problem for her and her husband to work out. Work it out with your partner and there you go. And if her husband says "what the hell, you're a woman, you look after this kid", then that's a relationship issue for them, not any sort of issue for us.

I mean, the laws aren't equal and they need to be, but..

 

[useless]

If women, by society, are expected to look after the children much more often than men, how is it difficult to understand that this would affect women more? It's not exactly an expectation applied equally between men and women.

 

[Flying Pig]

Assuming that the maternity/paternity laws are equal for both genders, this would then become a problem for her and her husband to work out. Work it out with your partner and there you go.

I mean, the laws aren't equal and they need to be, but..

If it's only the one relationship, then yes. If the majority - or even a large minority - of husbands are thinking like that, it's a societal problem by definition.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Yeah but I mean in that scenario she would face the exact same issues if she were a man. wouldn't she? Or, what am I missing?

You're not missing anything, I'm just saying that the lack of equal paternity leave rights probably isn't the cause of her concerns.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

If women, by society, are expected to look after the children much more often than men, how is it difficult to understand that this would affect women more? It's not exactly an expectation applied equally between men and women.

Assuming she isn't shackled to the sink by an abusive husband and is married to (or in a relationship with) someone she can actually work with as a partner, then this is a problem for them to sort out as individuals, not "society".

 

[Manfred Belheim]

If it's only the one relationship, then yes. If the majority - or even a large minority - of husbands are thinking like that, it's a societal problem by definition.

It's funny how the blame seems to be shifting onto these theoretical husbands, given that SHE is the person directly expressing the view here.

 

[Samson]

If women, by society, are expected to look after the children much more often than men, how is it difficult to understand that this would affect women more? It's not exactly an expectation applied equally between men and women.

I am not sure how societal exceptions really directly effect any one personal decision about what hours to do, other than their effect on the 2 people involved.

Also, if societal exceptions are the problem, this is not helped by one of the most senior women in business apparently completely accepting such expectations and asking for the business world to change to accept them, rather than challenging the expectations.