The Rights of Men

[bhavv]

My father doesn't let my mother work, and she shackles herself to the kitchen and cooks 3 course meals daily and provides a free cleaning service for the whole house.

That's what being a female is all about, or so she taught me. 'I cannot work, I'm a lady!'.

 

[Senethro]

Why does this work even have to be done late?

 

[Ryika]

My father doesn't let my mother work, and she shackles herself to the kitchen and cooks 3 course meals daily and provides a free cleaning service for the whole house.

That's what being a female is all about, or so she taught me. 'I cannot work, I'm a lady!'.

Okay, so she cooks 3 course meals, which is fine and gives bonus points, but... does she make the sandwiches? That's what being a female is truly about.

_________

And more serious @the article:
I think there are some arguments to be made that business dinners are somewhat outdated. And also that it's a easier and more accepted for a man to be a "father" and a business man at the same time (though it comes with the downside of generally spending less time with the family than a woman who tries to fil the same role).

But other than that... I don't want to judge her too much, because that article is really short and it may not reflect her overall, possibly more nuanced position, but... the whole thing reads a lot like "This is not inclusive because men are willing to sacrifice more for their job than I am!" to me. I don't see how - with the slight exception mentioned above - this has to be a gendered issue at all.

 

[bhavv]

Unfortunately she cannot make sandwiches or any kind of western food ... Today I had to make my own tuna and salad cream sandwiches

Though she makes awesome rice dishes.

 

[warpus]

If women, by society, are expected to look after the children much more often than men, how is it difficult to understand that this would affect women more? It's not exactly an expectation applied equally between men and women.

Sure, but I was talking about a scenario in which maternity and paternity leaves are equal by law.

In which case any sort of "You're my wife, a woman, meaning that you should be making me sandwiches and looking out after our children while I screw around with the boys" issue is a relationship issue between the two parents. Something for them to work out, and not for us.

 

[Ryika]

In which case any sort of "You're my wife, a woman, meaning that you should be making me sandwiches and looking out after our children while I screw around with the boys" issue is a relationship issue between the two parents. Something for them to work out, and not for us.

I have no doubt that this post just started a libertarian vs. authoritarian-debate where libertarians will argue that the state shall have no say in the personal decisions of individuals and the authoritarians will say that the state should intervene so we get apparent equity on paper. Undoubtedly, both sides will argue with "No, you're obviously wrong, this is how it should be."

Of course the libertarians would be correct though. The state shall have no say in the personal decisions of individuals, this is so obviously how it should be.

 

[warpus]

I don't know, I try not to talk to liberterians. In the end the proper way of setting this up is so that parents have the exact same rights to take time off work to tend to their recently born children - whether they're men, women, transgender, or whatever. Then the couples can decide how to break up the time on their own. If you make maternity leave a lot more favourable then paternity leave, then of course most people will expect women to look after recently born kids moreso than men. It wouldn't be fair otherwise, would it?

 

[Ryika]

Yes, I think it's not a controversial topic that under the law men and women should have the same rights, the average person of pretty much every group on the political spectrum (other than maybe the far-right authoritarians) agrees with that (although often for different reasons).

The "controversial" point is whether we have to go further than that.

 

[warpus]

How much further can you go than giving men and women equal rights when it comes to maternity/paternity?

 

[Ryika]

I've argued with people who were of the opinion that we should force both partners to take maternity/paternity leave during that time so it is ensured that women are not disadvantaged because "society expects women to be the caregivers". In one instance a guy even argued that we need to force a 50/50 split.

 

[warpus]

That's clearly not going to work, as each couple is going to find itself in a different set of circumstances. In one case it might make sense for the husband to look after the child exclusively, in some cases it might make sense for them to split it 50/50, in others 20/80, 80/20, etc.

Maybe you just need to stop talking to libertarians or whoever

 

[Ryika]

That's an authoritarian position. And of course a very extreme one at that, not that anyone thinks I'm suggesting that the majority of authoritarians would agree with that. ^^

But yes, I agree, it would severely impact the rights of the individual to live the life however they choose to and make the arrangements that they want.

It seems that the way people come to a different conclusion is that they value the collective over the individual. "If the group that is 'women' ends up in a worse position than the group that is 'men' because of some societal expectations, then we need to change that for its long-term benefit, even if some individuals (including women) have to suffer because of it." - or something like that.

Don't see why I should stop talking to these people though, I find it very interesting to hear the opinions of people whose conclusions differ greatly from mine as long as they're willing to have an actual argument. ^^

 

[Flying Pig]

I think a lot of people, particularly with some of the things that have come out of modern psychology, would question whether a choice made without coercion is necessarily the line we should draw for 'free'.

 

[Narz]

I thought here was an appropriate place to post this. From the beeb:



This is the head of the CBI, and she seems to be under the impression that men actually WANT to work long into the evening, rather than doing it because they have to. Does she really think there is something different about men and women that women with children cannot do without seeing them on an evening when man can?

She's taking her preferences and throwing all women under the bus to try to change things on her behalf (not on behalf of any other women).

I know plenty of women who like to party late & neglect their kids.

 

[Rashiminos]

Why does this work even have to be done late?

It has something to do with ferreting out the character of the other party, and supper occurring at a more suitable time (less contrived, for instance) for such an endeavor. If nothing else, a shared meal will ameliorate the other side of the proceedings.

Spoiler :

Or we could go into how someone taking food into their bodies becomes suggestible on other topics.

 

[warpus]

Don't see why I should stop talking to these people though, I find it very interesting to hear the opinions of people whose conclusions differ greatly from mine as long as they're willing to have an actual argument. ^^

I don't disagree, but from my experience Libertarians tend to live in a fantasy land where reality can be ignored and everything is made up. So there is nothing really to be learned by attempting to communicate with them, aside from more curious facts about their ideology.

I enjoy discussing things with people who believe different things from me too, but if those people base everything they believe and say on a super faulty ideology that doesn't at all jive with reality, then disagreeing with them and trying to work out through the disagreements is usually not going to be worth it. It's just going to lead to frustration, really. You're far better off discussing things with people who agree that reality is something we should consider when making statements about reality.

Anyway, back to the issues men can face. The biggest right now for me is that we can't even seem to be able to discuss these issues and try to address them. People will jump out of the woodwork and start shouting you down no matter what you say.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I don't disagree, but from my experience Libertarians tend to live in a fantasy land where reality can be ignored and everything is made up. So there is nothing really to be learned by attempting to communicate with them, aside from more curious facts about their ideology.

I enjoy discussing things with people who believe different things from me too, but if those people base everything they believe and say on a super faulty ideology that doesn't at all jive with reality, then disagreeing with them and trying to work out through the disagreements is usually not going to be worth it. It's just going to lead to frustration, really. You're far better off discussing things with people who agree that reality is something we should consider when making statements about reality.

Anyway, back to the issues men can face. The biggest right now for me is that we can't even seem to be able to discuss these issues and try to address them. People will jump out of the woodwork and start shouting you down no matter what you say.

I would agree with all of that except the use of the word "libertarian" to describe such people, which doesn't seem entirely apt to me. Although I note you used a capital L so maybe that means something.

 

[warpus]

I'm talking about people who self-identify as libertarian.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

But surely that would also include some people who genuinely are libertarian and also don't have a warped view of reality? I have to admit it's not a term I heard until a few years ago and am not massively familiar with some of the connotations attached to it. A similar thing is true with "liberal", which seems to mean very different things depending on what country you're from.

 

[warpus]

The thing is that if you self-identify as libertarian, you take on some of those whacky beliefs that libertarians rally around. Otherwise you wouldn't self-identify as such. I have yet to meet a libertarian who stops and says "hold on, let's look at the case studies here instead of ploughing ahead with ideology-only arguments". They're all nuts as far as I'm concerned. But that's a bit off topic really.