The Rights of Men

[Ryika]

That's a social factor rather than being inherently biological, one that's also changing as more women work and more men stay at home.

You should bring evidence when you make statements like that.

 

[useless]

No it isn't and can we discuss this without bringing feminist dogma into the discussion, after all we're trying to debate men's rights here from a MRM perspective.

What feminist dogma? That society and social issues play a part in this world? That's neither feminist nor dogmatic, many other theories acknowledge this as well.

 

[Ryika]

What feminist dogma? That society and social issues play a part in this world? That's neither feminist nor dogmatic, many other theories acknowledge this as well.

Your claim was not that social factors play a role (which they obviously do), but that it's a "social factor rather than being inherently biological". That sounds like you're saying that only social factors play a role.

So maybe you should clarify:

- Women are only more likely to be pre-disposed to looking after children because of cultural reasons

or

- Culture and Biology both play a role

?

 

[useless]

I honestly believe culture plays a bigger part, there are plenty of mothers who have and want nothing to do with their own children.

 

[brennan]

Your stated position is not that 'social factors play a part in this world', which I would agree with, it is that physical gender plays no part in individual decisions regarding child rearing, which is baloney and feminist dogma. If you are unable to take part in this discussion without insisting on bringing feminism into it then please either leave the thread or admit that it is not MRA's that force feminism into these issues.

 

[brennan]

I honestly believe culture plays a bigger part, there are plenty of mothers who have and want nothing to do with their own children.

What proportion is "plenty", citations please.

 

[Flying Pig]

There's a whole Wikipedia article on it.

 

[useless]

Your stated position is not that 'social factors play a part in this world', which I would agree with, it is that physical gender plays no part in individual decisions regarding child rearing, which is baloney and feminist dogma. If you are unable to take part in this discussion without insisting on bringing feminism into it then please either leave the thread or admit that it is not MRA's that force feminism into these issues.

Like i said, if you aren't able to deal with the fact that people will bring in competing and alternative viewpoints on this discussion you are more than entitled to start your own feminism-free thread or go elsewhere, but i continue to post here.

 

[Ryika]

I honestly believe culture plays a bigger part, there are plenty of mothers who have and want nothing to do with their own children.

Well, frankly, what you believe is the bigger factor does not matter to me. The Studies that I've seen on this pretty much conclude that both are factors and that it is not possible to really tell which is the greater contributor because of the many other factors that cannot be factored out (without doing some truly immoral experiments).

And that there are plenty of mothers who have and want nothing to do with their own children is not telling much either, as even in a scenario that is driven PURELY by biology you would still expect to see them, so it is more than obvious that you'd see them in any scenario that is driven by both factors, no matter how big the contribution of each.

But I'm glad you at least acknowledge that both play a role, given how many people I have seen go through the mental gymnastics to deny the role of Biology completely.

 

[Rashiminos]

au contraire, if the concept of "men's issues" wants to gain legitimacy, it should stop being associated with meninists.

And how would people advocating for men's rights prevent such an association from being made?

except meninism isn't a real thing.

There's an overlooked splitting...

 

[brennan]

There's a whole Wikipedia article on it.

1) Stay at home dads in no way inform us of the prevalence of mothers 'who have and want nothing to do with their children'.

2) You might at least have bothered to paste the section on 'prevalence' unless you didn't want anyone to actually read it because 'very little' doesn't make the case very well.

@Useless: thankyou for the admission that feminists cannot help but butt in to the conversation that MRA's are trying to have without them. Please never claim again that all MRA's want to do is slag off feminists. You make it abundantly clear over and over again which side wants to attack the other.

 

[useless]

Basically you want to have your cake and eat it Brennan, you want to discuss gender issues without having any alternative views well here's the thing brennan, this is a discussion forum where opposing views meet.

If putting across feminist views or at the very least differing views counts as attacking MRAs then so be it, but that shows the fragility of the group.

 

[Rashiminos]

i'm using 'meninism' specifically to not refer to actual 'men's issues'

So you've made bins for {meninism} and {actual men's issues}. What now?

It's probably better to use "Male supremecy" rather than meninism.

Ah, labeling theory...

{meninism/Male supremacy} and {actual men's issues}

Spoiler :

Yes, I agree that madviking is using a bin to avoid having to make certain references.

Is it any surprise that when women are expected by society to remain home and rear children, they may be the ones who gain access of children in the majority of cases?

No. The surprise is the repetition of the expectation from those claiming to not want to be part of the society in question.

Basically you want to have your cake and eat it {Brennan}

*Applause* Heard any more good jokes lately? (Bracketing mine)

 

[brennan]

@ Useless...you never did have a sense of irony...

 

[Rashiminos]

I'm pretty sure men can take paternity leave, at least in the UK as far as i know.

Leading horses to water...

Er... if a tree falls over in the woods and there is no-one aroubd to hear it, does it make a noise?

Why have we switched to asking irrelevant questions?

How was the question irrelevant?

Spoiler :

Biological difference arguments don't work against you...

No it isn't and can we discuss this without bringing feminist dogma into the discussion, after all we're trying to debate men's rights here from a MRM perspective.

Why avoid it?

Spoiler :

Especially when other posters keep insisting that you do?

 

[brennan]

@ Rashiminos, just letting one of our rabid anti-MRA's dig his own hole. (I thought that was obvious tbh).

He's been complaining for weeks that MRA's should get on and discuss issues without talking about feminists, when any such attempt is made he continually derails and demands the right to push a feminist agenda. The hypocrisy is evident. Feminists are the single most censorious group i've encountered in decades online; even beating creationists in shouting people down, mudslinging and handing out bans.

 

[Rashiminos]

@ Rashiminos, just letting one of our rabid anti-MRA's dig his own hole. (I thought that was obvious tbh).

On second look, that's probably right.

Acknowledging that men get certain benefits etc is hardly a uniquely feminist perspective. If you have a problem with people discussing it in conjunction with feminism then you should go to the red pill subreddit where you will find discussion that is 100% against feminism.

Some of us have been there. Some others among us are afraid to go.

Spoiler :

Some of us recognize that we receive the "muscle" treatment when we go to such a space, which might lend justification to the avoidance behavior.

 

[Narz]

I'm well aware that people who know nothing about teacher training think they know what it consists of, or rather what it doesn't consist of. I've been through teacher training and I can tell you that you and they are all wrong. Education theory just doesn't last half a term out in the field. People have this idea that if teachers just 'got it' then teaching would be perfect, they don't realise that every new teacher has exactly the same idea... for about two months.

I can't speak on training but nonetheless many teachers have terrible social skills, prefer to turn the other way when bullying is going on, etc etc. I'm sure it's come a long way since I was in school 20-30 years ago.

 

[brennan]

...because teachers display entirely normal social behaviour when they are in charge of 30 hormonal teenagers.

 

[Rashiminos]

Here's a classic video that I find to be apropos:


Link to video.