The Sailors Dirge

[Kael]

The Sailors Dirge is a barbarian naval vessel that spawns when the game starts. In 0.16a it has a 2% chance of spawning a skeleton in its cargo each turn on the easy difficulty levels (Settler, Chieftan, Warlord), 4% per turn on the medium difficulty levels (Noble, Prince, Monarch) and 6% per turn chance on the hard difficulty levels (Emperor, Immortal, Diety).

Meaning that on Chieftan difficulty the Dirge will spawn an average of 2 skeletons during the first 100 turns.

The mechanic is a bit swishy, meaning it isnt evenly distributed, and could cause early game losses if the randomness doesn't come out in the players favor (if the dirge spawned close to the player and the dirge got lucky and spawned a skeleton or two early).

Swishy mechanics are good in that they make game play differently each time (randomness is what keeps this game from being a spreadsheet). But they are bad when they rely to heavily on luck, some skill should be involved.

We will probably have disagreements in this thread. Thats okay, I just ask that everyone respect everyone elses viewpoint. No one is wrong for thinking the dirge is to powerful, no one is wrong for thinking its not. Please vote in the poll, and if you have some thoughts on it feel free to post here but try not to attack others opinions.

BTW, this isnt a democracy so I can't promise we will go with the poll results. But I am curious to see how everyones opinions fall.

 

[Civkid1991]

i haven't voted yet... but when i played a game just today it spawed but i never came in contact with it... maybe it should be made more dangerous (haven't desided wheather to vote that or not)

 

[MrUnderhill]

It isn't so much that the Dirge is overpowered, just that it comes into the game way too early. Even Orthus and Acheron don't appear until year 75 or later, but the Dirge shows up on turn 0 and starts killing civs from there.

If it spawned randomly like the other Barb heroes, or once two other civs get Sailing or some other sea-related tech, then most civs would have enough cover from Skeletons at that time, and some would even have a means to fight the Dirge ship-to-ship. If your cities aren't properly defended by then, that's your fault.

 

[retro V]

Voted to make it harder.

Would it perhaps be possible to randomly warp it anywhere that's wet on the map, seeing as it's a ghostship. If it had high movement points it could get around each turn to do it's damage, but then it would warp somewhere else at the end of it's turn to avoid blockading one poor sap, AI or human, into a stalemate or annihilation.

I haven't even seen what it can do personally. But on emporer levels it doesn't affect much. Only once or twice have I seen AIs fall foul to the barbs, which is about as often as they did pre-0.16.

 

[Grev_michal]

played 2 games so far and havent encountered it (one terra and one arch) - so I havent voted yet.

 

[rjjb]

If it spawned [...] once two other civs get Sailing or some other sea-related tech, then most civs would have enough cover from Skeletons at that time, and some would even have a means to fight the Dirge ship-to-ship.

I like this idea.. it still has the potential to appear in 30-35 turns (maybe less?), but by the time it generates a couple skeletons (with somewhat reduced percent from .16a) it shouldn't be impossible to defend against it and the AI should be better set up. I can't see the AI rushing Sailing though unless it's a watery map.

I also like the idea of it getting more powerful as time goes on.. Say, by gaining the experience from its skeletons' combat and/or it's own naval battles. Experience could allow the ship to become more powerful (strength/movement/..) as well as increase the abilities of the skeletons it generates.

I don't like the idea of it being capturable, except perhaps by an evil civ.. and if so, it should only be destroyable by a good civ. If you're neutral, well.. sit on the fence.. expect to be not but a target.

I voted 'weaken', but only because there's no 'move to appropriate era and/or strengthen appropriately'.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Ah, I see I misinterpreted the previous information on it. I'm not sure where I'm going to vote, after seeing this. I'd prefer for it to show up 15-20 turns into the game (scaled by game speed), but then have perhaps a 15% chance per turn of spawning skellies. I think it should be made weaker in one aspect, stronger in another. I don't like the way it is now, but I certainly have an opinion. I suppose I'll abstain from the voting, but I do think the mechanic needs revision.

 

[Good Sauce]

I haven't personally run awfoul of it yet, but in almost all my games one civ has been eliminated early by it. I like Chandraskhar's idea of upping the % skele spawn, but moving back later into the game. I think it should spawn at about the same time as orthus, no later than acherons spawn

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Actually, I think that making it spawn halfway between Orthus and turn 1 would be alright. The Sailors' Dirge doesn't seem like nearly the threat that Orthus is. The AI starts with a warrior partially built, and having to build a second warrior within ~30 turns when you have a coastal start isn't too bad a penalty at all. Two fortified warriors should have no trouble taking on a few skeletons.

Of course, upping its power a whole bunch, making it spawn nightmares (or something), and making it show up considerably far after Acheron would make it like a midgame Orthus, but if we're going to keep it in the early game, I think having it spawn around turn 30 (scaled by game speed) would be the best.

 

[Hypnotoad]

I think it should be moved back or somehow you should be able to prepare for it. I'm all for a deadly world, but it is a game and there should be some sense that it is possible to prepare for what the world sends at you. It sounds like as it is, some people are just forced to lose early on. That's not fun.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Problem, or early perception?

When the ship spawns a skeleton does it disembark it immedeately? Or is there room to accumulate several skellies in its hold before it bumps into land?

I just can't see this unit wrecking many games if all it does is spawn a skeleton on average once every 17 to 50 turns. On high skill levels only one skellie in 17 will be followed one turn later by a second, consecutive spawn. Yes it is possible for those consecutive turns to come at a Very Bad Time. But after players have a couple 0.16 games under their belt, I'll bet it will be rare for the Dirge to catch them napping.

Now, if the ship can hold a swarm of skells, maybe the problem is that first docking? Does it land and pop out an anorexic Omaha Beach? Then limit its hold to 1 unit.

Other than that, the thing sounds about right. It could even be tweaked up a skosh, perhaps. Wait to adjust the %'s and let people get a few more games played, is my 2 cents.

(I voted 'about right')

 

[Endovior]

I voted about right. I've played a few games since 0.16, and it hasn't been an issue... some civs DID die from barbarians, but (as I confirmed with Worldbuilder) those were unrelated to the Dirge.

Even in the game when I played Lanun and it started in plain sight it wasn't an issue... it just sailed away, never to be seen again.

 

[YohanLeafheart]

Don't know if it was just bad luck, or something on the code. Playing a normal noble 0.16 game, The Sailor Dirge came to my capital before my first warrior could even be out. And it disembarked 3 Skeletons right away.

I will test today 0.16a I think the change with the spawn chance should be enough to balance it.

 

[marioflag]

About the sailor's dirge i don't find it overpowered the problem is that it comes too early.About skeleton it is never a problem if you defend very well your cities, the real problem is that you can not defend on the sea from the sailor's dirge so it can pillage all your sea improvements while you haven't yet discovered sailing to build navies.So in my opinion Sailor's Dirge should appear later perhaps at turn 100-150 (maybe with a graphic pop-up like with orthus) but it should be more powerful with better chance for turn to get a skeleton and more strenght perhaps from 5 to 6-7.I have never killed the sailor's dirge so i don't know if it gives a bonus to the navy which kill it but perhaps would be good to give the ship which kills the dirge a "talisman" which give this ship a chance to get skeleton like the dirge.

 

[Sureshot]

i voted harder, ive had it come after me in the worst case (started within two tiles of capital on deity marathon) and it caused less trouble than the barb rush (skelettes cant pillage).

 

[felwar]

I notice an inherent problem with this poll, thread, and mechanic. No where here does anyone mention game speed. Is this taken into account in the spawn speed of the skeletons at all?

I've managed to kill the ship because it likes to park itself inside a city as soon as one is available, so I've just overwhelmed the city itself. But the AI already has a lot of problems defending against the skeleton attacks early on, and if you're playing on a game speed where you're putting out a warrior in the first 10 turns, that isnt so bad. But when a warrior takes the first 20 or 30 turns to build, it can be pretty easy to get over-run by this thing early on due to nothing more than bad luck without the slightest thing you could have done about it.

 

[Xuenay]

I'm of the "push its appearance up by 20 turns and give it the ability to summon wraiths later on" camp. Didn't vote on the poll, since that's doing both.

 

[DarthCycle]

I think it needs tweaking.

Either you don't encounter it and it's a non-issue, either it shows up way too early and you're doomed.

In my 2nd game of 0.16 at monarch, I had just build my first warrior unit when the ship appeared and unloads 3 skeletons. Kaboum. Game over. I actually laughed at this. In another game, the unit was stuck between ice tile.

I don't know how the current mechanic for the unit works but there should be a trigger for it, like the barbarian king and the dragon hoard. It would be nice if the trigger was linked to a technology, like sailing.

 

[Azragaul]

I actually liked the first version better than the .16a version. I think the percentages are too low for it too spawn a skeleton in the .16a version. I like the fact it would run around and possibily kill off a couple of AI civs early (or me for that matter if I'm not careful, or I just play on Monarch or Emp and the AIs seemed to handle it better.

The only problem I have with it is one game it sat off the coastline of my inital city for the first 200 turns. It was a rough start once Orthus showed up, of course my warriors handled him fine because they had clobbered so many skeletons. I was able to fend off the skeletons and expand but the 4 sea resources could not be worked until it left. If there would be some way for it to randomly dissappear and reappear somewhere else on the map each turn that could balance everything up. Even the AI might be able to fend for itself for the few turns the ship might be on its coastline and then dissappear

 

[Dashwood]

I've been lurking forever and never posted before -- but a vote to keep the Dirge? Count me in.

I voted that the Dirge is about right, although I personally would prefer a little more challenge from it. I adore the addition of both it and the Barrows, as it makes those random undead on the field to truly be feared. Keeping that it is a ghost ship, I think it would be neat if it respawned once killed, although by that part of the game it really is a non-issue. Also I think its AI needs to be tweaked so it doesn't sit in port all day once the Barbarians get a coastal city. I know it probably can't be helped, seeing as the Barbs are a single culture, but the Undead Barbs getting along with the Orc Barbs just doesn't sit right with me.

Other than that -- my fastest demise to the Dirge was yr. 37 as Amurites (Noble). I was the only culture to have built a coastal capital and it bee-lined straight for me with 3 skeletons against my two warriors. That and some earlier bad luck and poof, empire gone, xD. Most fun I've had in the early game yet!