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The Scots as a Civilisation?

Hey, I'm not English. :p

Also, the English in 1707 could have, as Cromwell had done with only half of England, crushed Scotland like a little bug. The reasons the Scots could gallantly resist English domination in the past were obsoleting very fast in the 17th century; England was a world power now, not the regional power it had been in previous centuries (it could and did take on France and Spain simultaneously and defeated them).

England was not the 'World power' you claim it to be in the early 18th Century. The Jacobite rebellion (led by Prince Charlie) in 1745 caught the English off-guard and it's believed they would have had a free walk to London to reclaim the crown had they not made the fatal decision to turn around when they were almost there. This allowed the English enough time to regroup their strength under the Duke of Cumberland to quash the resistance.

I don't think anyone doubts that England could have fully conquered Scotland at some point in history had they concentrated their efforts more. Instead, English eyes were constantly drawn to the richer and more lucrative areas in France. As a result, they found they couldn't conquer France or Scotland.
 
What 'big army'? It's was based around political and economical reasons. From Scotland's perspective they were at their weakest economically speaking as a result of the failed Darien Scheme.

The one England could raise and send into Scotland any time it wanted.

It is true Scotland was weak economically at that point, prolly the reason the Union plan worked and illegitimacy and immediate bloodshed avoided.

The height of the 'British Empire' was at the start of the 20th Century.
'Tis true, but it was well underway before its acquisition of Scotland.

Those who continue to refer to Great Britain as England in the modern age are simply ignorant people.

That would include most post-Union monarchs and Prime Ministers.

There's other way about it. You're also negating the fact that for around 100 years, England (and Scotland) were ruled by Scottish Monarchs (the Stewarts). One could quite easily have had James VI (I of England) as a figurehead representating the Union of the Crowns in 1603.

James VI/I was Scottish; the remainder were English. If origin through the senior male line is what you're talking about, then these kings were originally French.
 
England was not the 'World power' you claim it to be in the early 18th Century. The Jacobite rebellion (led by Prince Charlie) in 1745 caught the English off-guard and it's believed they would have had a free walk to London to reclaim the crown. Only a fatal decision to turn around when they were almost there allowed the English enough time to regroup their strength under the Duke of Cumberland to quash the resistance.

But it was. The English were only caught in 45 because they had the bulk of their professionals fighting in Europe. They soon got them back and crushed the rebellion.
 
You know, one of the over-riding criteria for including a culture/nation as a civ in civilization is fun. Would it be fun to have the Scots in as a civ - and would it sell?

You bet! :D

PS: I don't have stitch of Scots in my family, but man I luv those kilts - all we got from Holland were "klompen" (wooden shoes). I dunno, but kilts are kewler than klompen! :lol:
 
all we got from Holland were "klompen" (wooden shoes). I dunno, but kilts are kewler than klompen! :lol:
Wooden shoes are a early version of safety boots, and even today in some circumstances far more safer then Steel-tee boots
 
What we need is a new category of small civs, sort of below the "regular" civs but quite a step up from barbarians. Something like the minor races in BotF would work. (They'd be great for vassalizing/conquering. :D)

That is really a great idea. Maybe they will for Civ 5? (If/when)

(favorite line from Kurgan: "Happy Halloween ladies..." )
 
The "British Empire" as its called predates the Union and was well on the way before the annexation of the Scots.
That's just plain incorrect- prior to 1707, there was no Britain to speak of, beyond the island. England and Scotland were too separate kingdoms, both of which were abolished in 1707 and replaced by the new Kingdom of Great Britain. Neither country was annexed by the other, hence the term "Act of Union". If the English merely wanted to annex Scotland then they would've done what they did in Wales- march in, depose the existing government and declare it to be part of England. Instead, the English actually abolished England as a nation-state, replacing it with a new one.
And that's not just some misguided national pride on my part, it's just plain fact.

Also, the English in 1707 could have, as Cromwell had done with only half of England, crushed Scotland like a little bug.
Conveniently forgetting that Cromwell did not "conquer" Scotland, he simply aided the republican forces in Scotland.
People- both English and Scottish- have a habit of forgetting that the various conflicts in Scotland in the 17/18th centuries where not English attacks on Scotland, they were internal conflicts within Scotland. Cromwell's invasion of Scotland, for example, had widespread support among Presbyterian Scots who opposed a Catholic monarch, and was seen no more seen as foreign invasion than the French saw the D-Day Landings as a foreign invasion.
 
That's just plain incorrect- prior to 1707, there was no Britain to speak of, beyond the island. England and Scotland were too separate kingdoms, both of which were abolished in 1707 and replaced by the new Kingdom of Great Britain. Neither country was annexed by the other, hence the term "Act of Union". If the English merely wanted to annex Scotland then they would've done what they did in Wales- march in, depose the existing government and declare it to be part of England. Instead, the English actually abolished England as a nation-state, replacing it with a new one.
And that's not just some misguided national pride on my part, it's just plain fact.

Legal fictions. The Union was a formal name change for England which allowed them to annex Scotland. As I said before, Great Britain had been a romantic alternative name the English used for themselves since the 12th century. Most international historians think the Union so unimportant that they ignore it. And most Englishman were and continued to be unaware that England nominally ceased to exist. Business as usual was the reality. Usually, it is only the Scots who take it seriously, and I suspect this is in order to convince themselves they weren't taken over.

Conveniently forgetting that Cromwell did not "conquer" Scotland, he simply aided the republican forces in Scotland.
People- both English and Scottish- have a habit of forgetting that the various conflicts in Scotland in the 17/18th centuries where not English attacks on Scotland, they were internal conflicts within Scotland. Cromwell's invasion of Scotland, for example, had widespread support among Presbyterian Scots who opposed a Catholic monarch, and was seen no more seen as foreign invasion than the French saw the D-Day Landings as a foreign invasion.

You're kidding yourself man. The Scots resisted Cromwell and were crushed like little bugs, though of course both England and Scotland were partially divided at the time.
 
Whatever, it doesn't look were going to agree on this. My point was that the Act of Union was just that- an Act of Union- technically and functionally distinct from an annexation. You claim otherwise. Let's leave it at that.
 
Just a random thought:
Why is this thread even here after we already knew all of the civs? Is it if they have a future expansion for Civ IV again(which I highly doubt a third)? Or is it just for a good argument?
 
It's about a good argument plus filling time until next Friday :)
 
Whatever, it doesn't look were going to agree on this. My point was that the Act of Union was just that- an Act of Union- technically and functionally distinct from an annexation. You claim otherwise. Let's leave it at that.

It is just that, a legal agreement, an Act of Union. There was no annexation.

If we were, the proposition of Independence would be far harder than currently proposed, ie overturning the Act of Union would in itself dissolve the union.
 
It's about a good argument plus filling time until next Friday :)

:goodjob: Exactly. Nothing more than idle banter to fill the time, although I'm still struggling to work out where calgacus is getting his 'facts' from. :crazyeye:

Regarding the use of Britain, it was actually a term used by King James IV (I England) when he acceded to the throne after the Union of the Crowns in 1603. To his misfortune he pushed the 'union' too quickly but the ball was rolling for 'Britain' as a term even then. Where being 'British' went down the best was in N. Ireland. People there were made up mainly from west coast Scotland and the Mersey and they identify themselves as 'British' before anything else.
 
More important than the legal arguments is to what extent Scottish independance would effect Englands Civ V status. If you take the American view that England + Scotland = Bigger England ( absolutely not my view) then the reduced importance may relegate us to the first expansion pack :cry:
 
Great Britain was just a name change in order to make the annexation of Scotland easier to swallow for the latter (it had been a romantic term for England for centuries, much in the way Gaul was for France)
That's the first time I've heard someone claim that. Most sources state that the term was coined by King James VI/ I after he united the the crowns. Do you have any references?

Agreeing to let the Scots retain certain institutions was standard practice when realms were taken over by bigger ones, and the name change was not as significant as it appears to us.
I can think of quite a few examples where this 'standard practice' of letting annexed countries (as you see it) keep their institutions, not to mention giving them representation and privileged tax breaks, was not enforced...

The situation was the people who agreed to it (whose real authority to agree to it BTW was not taken that highly by either themselves or the crown) were under severe pressure, both from financial ruin and the threat of that big army from their crown. If you think I'm trying to argue for or against the legitimacy of that, well you're wrong since I couldn't care less.
The Scottish MPs didn't take their authority seriously??? If all you're saying is that the Scottish authorities were under severe pressure, from financial ruin and the potential for war with England then I agree with you.

Well, funny thing is that in most of those countries British isn't an ethnicity, English, Scottish, Scots-Irish, Irish and Welsh are, but not British.
What I meant by British-Irish ethnicity was people of mixed English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish ancestry. Whether that is a legally or popularly recognised ethnicity is irrelevant to my point, which was that the majority of people in these countries have this kind of ancestry.

Also, civ as a game has to deal with more than just the "British" nomenclature phase of English history and civilization ... the previous 1000 years + also have to be take account of. Elizabeth after all ruled England, not Britain/United Kingdom; Victoria and Churchill "ruled" Britain/UK, which included England.
This is certainly a valid argument against a British civ. My take is that British history is of far more significance than pre-union English history, and that turns are much more frequent in late history civ. Also, a British civ could still represent a collection of related peoples in the same way that the Indian, Greek, Maya etc represent their civs during their long periods of disunity.

Gaelic though as I said is the language of the country called Scotland in the same way that English is the language of the country called England ... nothing to do with geography.
The linguistic history of England is not comparable to that of Scotland. Scots has been a very significant part of Scottish culture since well before Scotland was even edging towards nationhood. There is no equivalent in England's history.

Neither Atina L. K. Nihtinen nor the person she cites here are experts on early Scottish or Celtic history as you claim... The only language we have any firm evidence for in Scotland-proper before the late 12th century was the language called by the 10th century Gaelic (Scotica).
Alas, I am not knowledgeable enough on the history of Scottish languages to either refute or accept your arguments. And although I find this very interesting I just don't have time to try and do more research myself.

You gotta get rid of these ideas of "true" languages, they are only later nationalist creations; there were neither universal languages of the masses nor true languages in that period.
When I used the word 'true' I was only clumsily attempting to paraphrase your assertion that Gaelic is to Scotland what English is to England, and your implied dismissal of the importance of the Scots language to Scottish history.
 
England =/= Scotland.

England + Scotland (+Wales + Northern Ireland + Some other things) = Great Britain
 
England =/= Scotland.

England + Scotland (+Wales + Northern Ireland + Some other things) = Great Britain

Wrong, Great Britain is the large island which is occupied by Wales, Scotland & England.

So England + Scotland (+Wales + Northern Ireland + Some other things) = United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
 
So England + Scotland (+Wales + Northern Ireland + Some other things) = United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Indeed. And just to confuse things further, the island of Ireland is part of the British Isles, but only the Northern Irish (and then only some of them) would call themselves British. :crazyeye:
 
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