The self-defeating nature of using "Privilege (Theory)" (in societal discourse)

Picking random numbers that support your conclusion isn't showing work. Couldn't you have found a source on the internet that you could site that provided the numbers you needed?
Like I said, there are no actual numbers that I could find. There does not seem to be a reliable method to draw a proper conclusion, because we do not have the data we would need for such a conclusion.

So yeah, the numbers I picked at random indeed. Which is fine, because I picked those numbers for a sample calculation, and nothing more than that. A sample calculation that I did, because you claimed I dismissed the existence of women, just because you did not understand how I could possible arrive at roughly an age of 50 when women have a life expectancy of 37 durrr. To make an example that can explain that to you, is all it was for.

For the actual discussion, this is entirely irrelevant. There's no reason to think the male-focused culture of Rome is exemplary of general female life expectancy. While some factors are the same - pregnancy mortality for example - cultural factors that reduced female life expectancy were simply not the same in hunter-gatherer-societies. The data from Ancient Rome does even show us that people could live into their 50s back then.

Setting that child-rearing age at "15-50" seems a bit high to me, but "15-30" is still ridiculously low. When corrected for child mortality, humans often lived much longer than that.
 
This is of course completely false. The one area where hunter-gatherers unambiguously had better health than us was their teeth, as switching to a grain-based diet (associated with the appearance of agriculture in the archaeological record) messed people's teeth up real bad. Other than that you're talking at-birth life expectancy less than half what it is today, and people were like a foot shorter than us on average, so to claim that was overall better than ours is just laughable.
So they were shorter which means the fact that they were more fit in other ways is wrong? You reckon they suffered much from diabates, heart attacks n the like?

I'd say it's like outdoor cats vs indoor, sure indoor cats live longer but their brains are smaller and without any danger their lives are more boring.

But of course tribal people dont get the joy of telling someone "This is of course completely false" on the internet so we can definitely agree they are missing out
 
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So yeah, the numbers I picked at random indeed. Which is fine, because I picked those numbers for a sample calculation, and nothing more than that.

A sample calculation using selected numbers in the absence of any data that you seemed quite adamant that my unwillingness to do meant...something. Okay, cool, glad that's settled.
 
Yes, and there is a generally recognized and negative connotation associated with "nagging," to the point it is trivial for a man to weaponize a woman's complaints against her, whether they are or not. Nagging is not psychological abuse. It's annoying, certainly, but it's not abusive.

I could also say that women being raised more aware of feelings are therefore also more inclined to empathy and therefore less likely to be psychologically abusive than a man, who is less likely to have similar empathy under this framework. I think if there is a demonstrable empathy gap attributable to gender, the gender more inclined to empathy would be less likely to engage in partner abuse.
I disagree on very technical grounds. And I think this is important:

The vector of nagging is not something to be categorized as abusive or non-abusive. One could abuse through nagging, or one could nag without abusing. To categorize a form of communication as abusive or non-abusive is tilted.
 
I disagree on very technical grounds. And I think this is important:

The vector of nagging is not something to be categorized as abusive or non-abusive. One could abuse through nagging, or one could nag without abusing. To categorize a form of communication as abusive or non-abusive is tilted.
Can I get an example of nagging that does not involve abuse?

Because... at the very core of the idea of nagging is that you continuously attack a person's emotional state to get something from them that you know they do not want to give you. The word literally comes from "to gnaw" (on a person's psyche). How could there be a case where that is not abusive?

Colloquially, some behaviors are incorrectly described as nagging (telling a person for the seventy-fifth time to stop wetting half of the bathroom's floor while peeing right after they did it again), but any actual case of nagging is always abusive. Not always in intent - a wife who nags her husband to stop drinking may very well come from a well-meaning place - but always in effect.
 
Because... at the very core of the idea of nagging is that you continuously attack a person's emotional state to get something from them that you know they do not want to give you. The word literally comes from "to gnaw" (on a person's psyche). How could there be a case where that is not abusive?

I dunno probably when my mom would repeatedly tell me to clean up my own dishes but I refused because I was a lazy piece of garbage? The funny thing is that nagging is often an indication that the person nagging is actually the "real" victim, where the person being nagged is not meeting their obligations. As I've gotten older I've been put in the position of being "that guy" who has to get someone else to do something they don't want to do and I have mostly succeeded in not nagging people but man it sucks being put in that position, and saying that nagging is a form of abuse is basically just gaslighting to the max.

Of course, as you are only sixteen I would not expect you to understand this.
 
Your example of fake nagging fits your definition of real nagging.
No, it doesn't. It _could_ fit the definition if your partner has expressed that they do not want to stop doing that, but surely you would not just accept that. If you do say: "Fine, then continue doing it.", or the issue remains unresolved and then you bring it up constantly, then yeah, that's nagging.

In the everyday scenario where he says: "Yeah, yeah, I'll stop doing it.", and she then brings it up the next time it happens, that's not nagging even though the husband would probably tell his friends "My wife keeps nagging me about my toilet habits. Can't she just accept that I'm an uncivilized pig who can't pee without making a mess?".

I dunno probably when my mom would repeatedly tell me to clean up my own dishes but I refused because I was a lazy piece of garbage? The funny thing is that nagging is often an indication that the person nagging is actually the "real" victim, where the person being nagged is not meeting their obligations.
That is again not a case of nagging. Colloquially, yes, psychologically, no.
 
I disagree on very technical grounds. And I think this is important:

The vector of nagging is not something to be categorized as abusive or non-abusive. One could abuse through nagging, or one could nag without abusing. To categorize a form of communication as abusive or non-abusive is tilted.

In a colloquial sense it's better to be unambiguous. One shouldn't label abusive behavior "nagging," because that can minimize the behavior. It risks equating an abusive behavior with a potentially non-abusive behavior in the mind of the audience.

"Man my wife was really nagging me last night, I don't feel right about it" just sounds innocuous. "Man my wife was really abusive towards me last night, I don't feel right about it" will much more clearly articulate what happened.

So it's not that I disagree with your definitions here, I just think that in terms of ought-to, it is far better if nagging and abuse are thought of as two separate concepts. Precision, particularly when it comes to potentially abusive situations, is of very high importance.
 
That is again not a case of nagging. Colloquially, yes, psychologically, no.

Ah, so you're using a custom definition of nagging. Not interested in continuing down that rabbit hole, thanks.
 
Ah, so you're using a custom definition of nagging. Not interested in continuing down that rabbit hole, thanks.
Well, I'm using the definition that describes the actual thing, not the definition of the word that is being used colloquially. Like... the word 'sociopath' has a very clear meaning in psychology, and it does not include people who just care much more about themselves than others, even though in colloquial use, those people will often be called sociopaths by their peers.

But good decision either way, I don't want to talk to you either, so everybody wins.
 
Like... the word 'sociopath' has a very clear meaning in psychology

No, actually it doesn't. The DSM uses "antisocial personality disorder" and there is plenty of disagreement among psychologists as to whether "sociopath" is a useful term or not.

As far as I'm aware there is no formal psychological sense of "nagging" which differs from its colloquial use.
 
No, actually it doesn't. The DSM uses "antisocial personality disorder" and there is plenty of disagreement among psychologists as to whether "sociopath" is a useful term or not.
You are correct, though in this case, Ryika is also.
 
Plague, war, famine; these aren't things that tend to happen to hunter-gatherers unless inflicted from the outside, and in the paleolithic, there wasn't any outside to do the inflicting.
Not sure having to fight wild animal and possible skirmishes with other tribes was much better than war, nor that having the regular infection and illness was in any way different for the regular guy than plague.
Malnutrition prevents pregnancy.
See above : I thought that famine wasn't a problem for them ? And if it were, how do you explain the agrarian constantly-pregnant situation could happen if they had famine ?
 
They never existed. The whole Hobbesian war of all against all thing never actually happened.
The rousseauist view of our ancestors being peace loving pacifists and that the ills of the world are due to agrarian society is not really true either. There is evidence that our species in it's hunter gatherer form conducted genocide on other tribes, and that a substantial portions of them died violent deaths. It's good to remember that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and that the meagre skulls and bones approach to early anthropology has to be supplemented with evolutionary psychology. Even chimpanzees have been documented to kill competing males and even whole packs of other chimps, so there is some reason to suppose that such behaviour might be something that is not very modern at all. There is also the question of what hunter gatherism even was. People, plebs like me, imagine that it was some uniform phase, like in the 18th century historical progressivist theories per Adam Smith for example, but the way people lived was most likely very varied depending on the environments they found themselves in. And as such the murder rates through inter-tribal "warfare" through ambushes and raids probably depended on how much the tribes needed to compete with other tribes for their survival.

Large scale war certainly is an invention of the post agrarian revolution world, but mostly because before that the population levels were so small that you didn't have polities large enough to recruit hundreds or thousands of men to have war, with a capital W, with the Other on a battlefield over their land, ladies and loot. A war or a genocide in the paleolithic/mesolithic didn't involve killing thousands of people, because there weren't many people to kill anyway. Killing 20 people could push your competing tribe to the brink of extinction by forcing them to leave their subsistence area, and fleeing to an are inhibited by another tribe.
 
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Even chimpanzees have been documented to kill competing males and even whole packs of other chimps, so there is some reason to suppose that such behaviour might be something that is not very modern at all.
But the other half of us, the good apes, bonobos!

Haha joke's on you, bonobos by any modern standards are terrible.
 
Not sure having to fight wild animal and possible skirmishes with other tribes was much better than war, nor that having the regular infection and illness was in any way different for the regular guy than plague.
Being eaten by a bear isn't much better than being disemboweled by a Viking, no doubt, and dying of a gangrenous limb isn't evidently preferable to dying of the pox.

But, the question is not the gnarliness of the death, it's the likelihood of any given human encountering such an end. Fighting a wild animal is something that happens rarely, for a brief moment of time, and in very specific contexts. It's fairly rare for animals to attack humans, and humans would only hunt dangerous animals like bears or boars in certain circumstances. Similarly, while untreatable infections may occur, they would largely result from severe and infrequent accidents. These are things which people have at least a degree of control over, and a careful man could survive until at least middle age without either threatening his life.

War and plague are very different propositions. They occur all at once, to everyone. Armies sweep across landscapes, burning homes, ravaging fields, uprooting communities that may have existed for generations. Plagues infect entire communities, exterminating generations and collapsing agricultural systems. The Black Death killed every third person in Europe; the Thirty Years War killed every second person in Germany. Whether or not a given individual encountered such threats had little to do with individual choices, but to great, impersonal forces beyond their control.

And the thing is, the above isn't speculative. We have records, mostly-second hand but a few first-hand, of people who live in simple, dispersed societies encountering the civilised threats of war and famine, and being consciously aware that this is some new and terrible.

The rousseauist view of our ancestors being peace loving pacifists and that the ills of the world are due to agrarian society is not really true either.
It's super-weird to me that any discussion this stuff has to begin with a ritualised consideration of and distancing from Hobbes and Rousseau, as if there was any other context in which the opinions of two specific but extremely dead men were assumed to wield that level of continuing authority.

Large scale war certainly is an invention of the post agrarian revolution world, but mostly because before that the population levels were so small that you didn't have polities large enough to recruit hundreds or thousands of men to have war, with a capital W, with the Other on a battlefield over their land, ladies and loot. A war or a genocide in the paleolithic/mesolithic didn't involve killing thousands of people, because there weren't many people to kill anyway. Killing 20 people could push your competing tribe to the brink of extinction by forcing them to leave their subsistence area, and fleeing to an are inhibited by another tribe.
I think it's a bit simplistic to treat this as a simple question of scale, as if it was materially possible for a tribe of one hundred and a nation of one million to wage war in the same fashion. Small, decentralised societies don't have the resources to wage extended or intensive wars, not least because their most valuable resource, human beings, is one that wars tend to burn through pretty quickly. Large-scale extended warfare requires either a dedicated warrior-class or classes who are economically marginal-enough that a society can afford to have them off fighting for months or years at a time, or it requires a powerful centralised state that can draft large parts of the working population without collapsing the economy. In simple societies, warfare is necessarily limited to ritualised confrontations or to one-off raids; there simply isn't the material basis for extended campaigns, not unless some powerful outside empire is prepared to subsidise them.

Wiping out a dozen people may decimate a tribe, but it's also much easier said than done. While it's certainly probably that there were some extremely violent encounters in simple societies, there's not a lot of evidence to suggest that they occurred on even a relative scale with the frequency they do in the "civilised" age.
 
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Here's a paper on factors affecting hunter-gatherer populations - they are quite susceptible to population fluctuations if their prey animals go through population declines (which they do).

The Saint-Césaire data suggest that a climatically induced reduction of species diversity in the EUP caused declines in human population densities. Furthermore, a reliance on reindeer, a highly fluctuating resource, would have promoted recurrent bottlenecks in the thinly scattered populations spread north of the Pyrenees and the Alps.
and here's one on population simulations of Europe during the last glaciation, suggesting that the population fell pretty dramatically - and I submit they they can't all have just emigrated.

This is quite a long read on the overall state of research into ancient populations (we don't know as much as you might think.)
 
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