The self-defeating nature of using "Privilege (Theory)" (in societal discourse)

It's super-weird to me that any discussion this stuff has to begin with a ritualised consideration of and distancing from Hobbes and Rousseau, as if there was any other context in which the opinions of two specific but extremely dead men were assumed to wield that level of continuing authority.

What can I say? Namedropping strokes the ego of a lesser man, such as myself. :blush: It's part of our western tradition, so why not. I kind of like our dead men. If you've got some dead chinese men or dead muslim men (although arn't they really western too?), I'd love to hear what they said too. Women too, for sure. They had interesting things to say. In our current political strife, it would be wise to take a look again in what they said. Even if the groups and words with which they fought their ideological battles are different from ours, the underlying nature of humans has changed very little.

I think it's a bit simplistic to treat this as a simple question of scale, as if it was materially possible for a tribe of one hundred and a nation of one million to wage war in the same fashion. Small, decentralised societies don't have the resources to wage extended or intensive wars, not least because their most valuable resource, human beings, is one that wars tend to burn through pretty quickly. Large-scale extended warfare requires either a dedicated warrior-class or classes who are economically marginal-enough that a society can afford to have them off fighting for months or years at a time, or it requires a powerful centralised state that can draft large parts of the working population without collapsing the economy. In simple societies, warfare is necessarily limited to ritualised confrontations or to one-off raids; there simply isn't the material basis for extended campaigns, not unless some powerful outside empire is prepared to subsidise them.

Wiping out a dozen people may decimate a tribe, but it's also much easier said than done. While it's certainly probably that there were some extremely violent encounters in simple societies, there's not a lot of evidence to suggest that they occurred on even a relative scale with the frequency they do in the "civilised" age.
I see that, but does it really matter if 10%, or what ever, of your ingroup gets killed by an ambush or by a field battle? The effects are the same. Certainly numerically more people die in the latter case, but it doesn't diminish the fact that the life for any individual pre-agricultural man was not substantially different in the sphere of violence than for the post-agricultural man. Concepts of war and peace are concepts tied to formal polities anyway. When there were no such formal polities, how can we even know that the people conceptualized a state of peace? More likely it was a constant state of intermittent co-operation, distrust and revenge between the small groups that existed back then. The form of violence changed, but if you are dead, does it really matter was the arrow in your skull from an soldier on the battlefield or another hunter from a bush somewhere?

There is evidence from contemporary hunter-gatherer societies where the murder rate is as high as 10-20%. Overall, I would not say that the swap to "civilization" was a downgrade from the life of hunter gatherers. Our ancestors suffered from too large societies for the social brains we have. A curse of our own success and the slow nature of biological evolution. The solution to this was inventing imagined communities such as religions that tied unknown people together, and inveting systems of shared invented conceptions of morals and justice. It's unlikely a coincidence that most early civilizations seem to be centered around a cult of some sort.
 
Last edited:
The rousseauist view of our ancestors being peace loving pacifists and that the ills of the world are due to agrarian society is not really true either. There is evidence that our species in it's hunter gatherer form conducted genocide on other tribes, and that a substantial portions of them died violent deaths. It's good to remember that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and that the meagre skulls and bones approach to early anthropology has to be supplemented with evolutionary psychology. Even chimpanzees have been documented to kill competing males and even whole packs of other chimps, so there is some reason to suppose that such behaviour might be something that is not very modern at all. There is also the question of what hunter gatherism even was. People, plebs like me, imagine that it was some uniform phase, like in the 18th century historical progressivist theories per Adam Smith for example, but the way people lived was most likely very varied depending on the environments they found themselves in. And as such the murder rates through inter-tribal "warfare" through ambushes and raids probably depended on how much the tribes needed to compete with other tribes for their survival.

Large scale war certainly is an invention of the post agrarian revolution world, but mostly because before that the population levels were so small that you didn't have polities large enough to recruit hundreds or thousands of men to have war, with a capital W, with the Other on a battlefield over their land, ladies and loot. A war or a genocide in the paleolithic/mesolithic didn't involve killing thousands of people, because there weren't many people to kill anyway. Killing 20 people could push your competing tribe to the brink of extinction by forcing them to leave their subsistence area, and fleeing to an are inhibited by another tribe.

majority of what you're saying is simply untrue (e.g. evolutionary psychology is pretty much wholly unfalsifiable gibberish, there is not good evidence that a high proportion of individuals in pre-state societies died violent deaths) but that claim had nothing to do with any of this at all. What I meant by this is simply that man is a social animal, and is situated and largely defined by relationships with other individuals. Most of the founding myths of classical (and by extension neoclassical) economics rely on an 'individual first' view of human nature and society which is demonstrably false.

Whether pre-agriculture humans killed each other a lot or not what is undoubtedly true is that Crusoe economics have never come remotely close to describing reality.
 
But I also know things are different in third-world countries. For example, life in Russia is tough, so I can see why Russians would be generally angry.
Russians are not "generally angry" or "naturally angry". However, due to the fact that many people were imprisoned during the Soviet times, the prison culture and "show strength" mentality leaked into public life. We have a culture of bullying "трави других, чтобы не травили тебя" (bully others so that you don't get bullied yourself). People are bullied in school, at work, in their own circles because it has become a part of the culture.

There is this new stupid trend among teenagers, called "поясни за шмот" (explain your clothes). Basically, teenagers stop other teenagers on the street and ask them to explain if their outfit is genuine or fake. And if, say, your Adidas sports suit is fake, you will get beaten up for "disrespecting the brand". You could also be beaten up if you are dressed "like an emo" or dressed any other way your attackers consider unacceptable. My nephew was recently attacked in the bright daylight for this, and out of all the people on the street no one stopped the attackers except for a middle-aged woman. Many people are used to violence and think that if someone is being beaten up, they must have done something and therefore deserve the beating.

Perhaps, that's why this poster thinks that violence is an integral component of any society and that people need to sublimate their violence on others? But it's also kind of ironic, because in another thread he said he is a systems administrator, and the stereotype for sysadmins in Russia is a fat guy who never leaves the house and plays videogames his entire free time, which is not something that is considered "violent" or even "masculine".
 
(e.g. evolutionary psychology is pretty much wholly unfalsifiable gibberish, there is not good evidence that a high proportion of individuals in pre-state societies died violent deaths)
IIRC old ("prehistoric") bones generally show a rough life (wounds from battle n whatnot) but if you don't want to believe that you won't seek out the evidence.

What I meant by this is simply that man is a social animal, and is situated and largely defined by relationships with other individuals.
Of course. But that doesn't mean any social arrangement is possible or that humans are beyond instinct or infinitely malleable (humans are malleable but not infinitely so especially if we're unaware of our predispositions). We're just semi-bright apes, way too complex to be fully understood but you can notice trends (or not if you don't want to notice them).
 
Maybe you are fake humans? A few hundred generations ago your ancestors were eating meat that they killed with their bare hands. If you think a few hundred generations is enough to completely breed out that kind of violence you are going to get a very rude surprise if you are ever in a genuinely high stress physical situation.
Seems like we are talking about different things here. What you are saying is that people killed animals (not other humans) to survive, and what I am saying is that I question that people are inherently violent and have the urge to be consistently violent on a daily basis. There is a big difference between killing a rabbit for food and the Ultimate Fighting Championship.

And yes, I might want to punch Brett Kavanaugh or kick a Nazi in the nuts, but those are isolated acts of aggression. This doesn't mean I want to go around my day punching other people or expressing my "violent" nature in other ways. I also like playing competitive games, but these are just games, and at the end of the day I also realize that in the grand scheme of things nobody really cares. I mean, outside of America nobody even cares about American football. Even in the US, there aren't all that many hardcore fans (cuz we all know many fans just come to games for the social experience and to hang out with friends). A game is not something required for living, too.

I have come to the conclusion that the only things that are inescapably natural are: 1) eating, 2) drinking, 3) sleeping, 4) peeing and pooping. The rest... you technically don't need, to live. Do you need sex? Not really. That's only needed for reproduction and further generations, but not for existing. In fact, given the wildly different attitudes towards sex throughout history and between cultures, I don't even know if my libido is in any way natural. For example, porn doesn't exist in nature, but if I go and watch pornhub.com, I am already consuming carefully curated and staged content, so there is nothing natural about it. Or what if I masturbate? I experience satisfaction by achieving an orgasm, but I don't need any other person because I can do it with my left (yes, left) hand. At this point it's just me stimulating my body and jumpstarting some biochemical processes in my brain. Everything else regarding sex is a product of social norms, because all your sublimation can be taken care of with one hand. But the Greeks considered sex to be an expression of power, so it was ok for Greek citizens to penetrate anyone of a lower class regardless of gender, and the Victorian era demonized sex, especially for anything other than procreation in the name of the Empire.

And violence? What biochemical process does it even start or what urge does it satisfy? Especially when the claim is that "every real-life society is based on violence"? What natural purpose does violence serve? Especially in modern society when you can literally never touch anyone and still live a satisfying life?

As a scientist, I always cringe when people ascribe their values or experiences to some overarching "human nature" which doesn't really exist other than the general chemical composition of our bodies.
 
I would argue that people in general have the capacity to be violent when they need to be, and the environment decides whether that need exists or not. If the need doesn't exist, then most people won't act on their inherent potential for violence, but when a person feels that the need arises - and that feeling will probably come quicker for some people than for others - people very quickly start acting according to their potential for violence, and don't really care for the societal boundaries.

That's one of the benefits of having a highly developed brain; we are very able to analyze the situation we're in and act accordingly even though a lot of the stuff happens subconsciously.
 
I saw a somewhat recent article about a study on violence in Mesopotamia around 3-4 kya, by examining skeletons researchers were able to determine violent homicide was rather rare. Maybe the Code of Hammurabi worked.
 
majority of what you're saying is simply untrue
Ok.
(e.g. evolutionary psychology is pretty much wholly unfalsifiable gibberish, there is not good evidence that a high proportion of individuals in pre-state societies died violent deaths)
By that standard we should throw away much of gender studies too. It is trivially true that we are products of our evolution. We are nothing special, although we do some things other animals can't do. Our bodies are a complex network of interlinked biological systems the workings of which we are just finding out. The dicotomy and the hatchet between nurture and nature arguments should be buried, and we should honestly study the interplay of our natural and cultural evolution, and how they can criticize and supplement each other. I warmly recommend "Thinking Big: How the evolution of our social life shaped the human mind".

If Jebel Sahaba and Ofnet, from the mesolithic, are not good evidence that the hunter-gatherers were capable of as much cruelty than their agriculturalist counterparts, and that they indeed lived rather violent lives from time to time, like the peasants did, then I'm not sure what would count as evidence. We just have more evidence from violence in agricultural societies that skews our vision.

but that claim had nothing to do with any of this at all. What I meant by this is simply that man is a social animal, and is situated and largely defined by relationships with other individuals. Most of the founding myths of classical (and by extension neoclassical) economics rely on an 'individual first' view of human nature and society which is demonstrably false.

Whether pre-agriculture humans killed each other a lot or not what is undoubtedly true is that Crusoe economics have never come remotely close to describing reality.
And that is why I said that the opposing view is not true either. Our ancestors were not blood hungry battle royalists, but not totally peaceful flowerchildren either. The tribe was the unit that mattered.

Edit:
adcarrymaokai said:
why are you posting Kremlin propaganda on this forum?
Interesting. A tip of the hat to the troll factories in Russia. They truly are the masters of information warfare. That truly is a masterful disinformation campaign considering the political climate in the west.
 
Last edited:
I ran some research on this, and as it turns out Viral “Manspreading” Video is Staged Kremlin Propaganda.

So the real question here is: why are you posting Kremlin propaganda on this forum?

Lol. You seem to be a Kremlin propaganda yourself presenting Kremlin to be so powerful and omnipresent and noticing only that in all my post. The Russian hackers and trolls are so powerful today, they could hack one’s brain to the point of obsession with Putin/Kremlin/etc. So don’t be so sure about your own judgement. E. g. you’re already unable to distinguish between when you did “some research” and when someone else did it for you.


That’s not the first time crazy activists do crazy things here in these parts of the world. P*ssy Riot? Rings a bell, no? Femen?

How about this one:

 
Last edited:
What I find off putting about the US leftist(?) academic jargon about race and gender is the words they use to portray their concepts.

According to this New York Times opinion piece, we have some gender traitors.
I didn't know that was a thing.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/06/opinion/lisa-murkowski-susan-collins-kavanaugh.html

Opinion
White Women, Come Get Your People
They will defend their privilege to the death.

By Alexis Grenell

Ms. Grenell has written on gender and politics for The New York Daily News, The Washington Post and other outlets.
  • Oct. 6, 2018
After a confirmation process where women all but slit their wrists, letting their stories of sexual trauma run like rivers of blood through the Capitol, the Senate still voted to confirm Judge Brett M. Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court. With the exception of Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, all the women in the Republican conference caved, including Senator Susan Collins of Maine, who held out until the bitter end.

These women are gender traitors, to borrow a term from the dystopian TV series “The Handmaid’s Tale.” They’ve made standing by the patriarchy a full-time job. The women who support them show up at the Capitol wearing “Women for Kavanaugh” T-shirts, but also probably tell their daughters to put on less revealing clothes when they go out.
 
Perhaps, that's why this poster thinks that violence is an integral component of any society and that people need to sublimate their violence on others? But it's also kind of ironic, because in another thread he said he is a systems administrator, and the stereotype for sysadmins in Russia is a fat guy who never leaves the house and plays videogames his entire free time, which is not something that is considered "violent" or even "masculine".

“This poster” is 192 cm 85 kg and is not pretending to be a resident of a place he is not (like “that poster there”), neither tells of himself to be violent or specifically masculine or even sporty.

And “that poster there” mistakes Russian stereotypes with 2Chan/4-Chan ones. I wonder why?

We have a culture of bullying "трави других, чтобы не травили тебя" (bully others so that you don't get bullied yourself).

Yet another lie from “that poster there” about Russia. He has just typed some words in Russian and put them in quote marks, as if it is a commonly used phrase or has some local meaning. But that’s just a phrase invented by him on the fly and used by noone else, which is easily checked via Google.

People are bullied in school, at work, in their own circles because it has become a part of the culture.

“That poster there” should really stop being a hikikomori, get over his traumatized childhood and learn the biggest differences between school and job, adults and teenagers.

Being a grownup (compared to a schooler) you are the one who chooses the environment and the people around you.

Job is not school. Just like you, people around you are not forced to this or that specific job place; and the job place is not forced to have specifically them or you. Job is about getting money. Being aggressive or a bully or just an arse means being out of the job, being ignored, hated and not taken seriously. People at work are motivated to get money, to pay for the living, family, goods. They are 100% sure why they are at work, what they get for it and what they may lose, unlike those schoolers. That thing reaches most other aspects of adult life. Adults tend to be practical, they to tend to evade spoiling the relationships with others (especially at their workplace), they usually have no luxury of being fed and paid for regardless of their misbehavior, like kids have. Plus the age. Adults are more careful and aware in general. But how would you know that?
 
Moderator Action: Aleksey, stop attacking "that poster there".
 
But, the question is not the gnarliness of the death, it's the likelihood of any given human encountering such an end.
That was my point.
War kill a lot of people, but overall on the whole human population, they were usually limited in range and would affect A LOT of people in their location, and very few outside. Fighting fauna, hunting accident and so on might have a low occurence, but it's a daily low occurence.

Samely for plagues and famines : illness themselves probably existed for all of mankind history, it was just the higher population density that made them more visible (I see no reason why tribes would be immune to poax or such). Samely, food scarcity was the primary limitation on population, be a tribe or a country, and I doubt there were much difference in the proportion of people hit by lack of food either way.

In all cases (conflict, lack of food, illness), I don't see a lot of difference in the proportion of people impacted in all case. It's just "a lot more at once, but less often" in the case of sedentary, much more populated societies, so it stands out.
[uote]I think it's a bit simplistic to treat this as a simple question of scale, as if it was materially possible for a tribe of one hundred and a nation of one million to wage war in the same fashion.[/quote]
Not in the same fashion, but definitely with the same impact on how much people die in proportion.
A single skirmish in a tribe with 50 warriors which leaves seven of them dead, is actually about the same impact, numerically speaking, as the entirety of WW1 on France. Let that sinks in. You don't need a "total war for years" (which is certainly a novelty requiring a whole society power and might be felt as something new and terrifying) to have the same proportion of people dieing to conflict. You just need a single encounter that somewhat turns badly.
 
By that standard we should throw away much of gender studies too.

I am fine with throwing out whatever is unfalsifiable.

we should honestly study the interplay of our natural and cultural evolution, and how they can criticize and supplement each other.

I agree, the only problem is that the majority of what is published under the umbrella of "evolutionary psychology" does not constitute "study" of anything.

If Jebel Sahaba and Ofnet, from the mesolithic, are not good evidence that the hunter-gatherers were capable of as much cruelty than their agriculturalist counterparts, and that they indeed lived rather violent lives from time to time, like the peasants did, then I'm not sure what would count as evidence. We just have more evidence from violence in agricultural societies that skews our vision.

Again, this has nothing whatever to do with my point, which was a refutation of methodological individualism and not an argument about how peaceful or violent pre-agricultural societies were.
 
I am fine with throwing out whatever is unfalsifiable.
That's pretty much everything from art history to biology, isn't it? To one extent or another.

A society which only values a few ultra-hard sciences might be able to congratulate itself on the epistemological purity of its scholars, but I can't imagine it would be a very interesting place to live.

That was my point.
War kill a lot of people, but overall on the whole human population, they were usually limited in range and would affect A LOT of people in their location, and very few outside. Fighting fauna, hunting accident and so on might have a low occurence, but it's a daily low occurence.
I think that you overstate the extent to which hunter-gatherers were battling mammoths or whatever. Humans mostly hunt birds and small mammals, and will mostly seem to have done so through trapping or extended pursuits. Dramatic scenes of ambushing mammoths are very romantic, but not typical.

On the other hand, wars can last months and years, they can devastate large areas, they can destroy not only farmland but crucial agricultural infrastructure such as irrigation and dams. Moreover, the dislocation and death caused by this destruction makes it even harder to piece everything back together again.

If Og gets gored by a boar, it is sad, but the world moves on. If your village is destroyed and your farmlands are flooded and half your family has been slaughtered, then everything is ruined and life will never be good again. It is not simply a case of counting how many people meet premature deaths, because half a tribe meeting premature deaths over the course of a generation is very different than half of a county meeting premature deaths in one very bad month.

Samely for plagues and famines : illness themselves probably existed for all of mankind history, it was just the higher population density that made them more visible (I see no reason why tribes would be immune to poax or such). Samely, food scarcity was the primary limitation on population, be a tribe or a country, and I doubt there were much difference in the proportion of people hit by lack of food either way.
Most of the really nasty communicable diseases, the ones that merit the status of "plagues", originated in domesticated animals. This is why many of them were absent in the world outside of Africa-Eurasia, even in the dense urban cultures of Mesoamerica and the Andes. You can't get Bubonic plague without cattle. Further, density does not simply increase the visibility of these diseases, it also increases opportunities to communicate disease between individuals. A hundred people spread thinly are less likely to spread the disease amongst themselves than ten thousand people packed closely. It's why plagues tended to kill a larger proportion of urban populations than rural ones.

Food scarcity is something which effects both hunter-gather and agrarian societies, but only the later will encounter actual famine, because famine assumes a staple crop or crops which are vulnerable to some specific devastating failure: blight, poor weather, the failure of irrigation systems, and so on. Hunter-gatherers certainly experience episodes of dearth, but their greater mobility and reliance on more distributed sources of food are going to cushion the impact, because it is unlikely that all of the resources available to hunter-gatherers across the entire year and over a wide area will simply fail all at once. Hunter-gatherers may have bad weeks, bad months, bad seasons, they may plausibly encounter periods of death severe enough to cripple or even destroy a band, but they don't run into the sort of situation where three or four years go by without a consistent source of food. You really do need a complex agrarian society for that.

A single skirmish in a tribe with 50 warriors which leaves seven of them dead, is actually about the same impact, numerically speaking, as the entirety of WW1 on France. Let that sinks in. You don't need a "total war for years" (which is certainly a novelty requiring a whole society power and might be felt as something new and terrifying) to have the same proportion of people dieing to conflict. You just need a single encounter that somewhat turns badly.
The Western Front of the First World War is a bit of a strange example to cite, because all of the contending powers recovered pretty quickly. The psychological impact on combatants was certainly immense, and the demographic impact was not inconsiderable, but the image of a shattered desert of mud and craters is really more a vision of the battlefields than a useful description of its broader impact on France, Germany or Belgium.

Killing a significance part of the able-body male population is going to cause problems, yes, but society will at least in the short term continue, and depending on circumstances may be well prepared to recover; the demographic losses of the First World did not strop Britain, France or Germany from mustering similar numbers a generation later.
 
I agree, the only problem is that the majority of what is published under the umbrella of "evolutionary psychology" does not constitute "study" of anything.
Your opinion on this is probably more informed by the fact that you've bought into a lot of feminist theory, than it is by the actual body of work that has been produced under the banner of evolutionary psychology.
 
That's pretty much everything from art history to biology, isn't it? To one extent or another.

A society which only values a few ultra-hard sciences might be able to congratulate itself on the epistemological purity of its scholars, but I can't imagine it would be a very interesting place to live.

On the other hand, a society where "women secretly want to be raped and men are biologically hardwired to be thoughtless killing machines" is considered a legitimate scientific assertion may be a more interesting place to live, but not very pleasant.
 
On the other hand, a society where "women secretly want to be raped and men are biologically hardwired to be thoughtless killing machines" is considered a legitimate scientific assertion may be a more interesting place to live, but not very pleasant.
Thankfully, to my knowledge that's not actually an assertion that's taken seriously in the field of evolutionary biology, but just a strawman that people who are in opposition to evolutionary biology on ideological grounds like to spread.
 
On the other hand, a society where "women secretly want to be raped and men are biologically hardwired to be thoughtless killing machines" is considered a legitimate scientific assertion may be a more interesting place to live, but not very pleasant.
It's not 100% clear to me that we're looking down the barrel of this particular binary choice.
 
Top Bottom