The Spice Thread

[fortydayweekend]

having to move captured spice "units" back to cities could be unnecessary micromanagement.

Yeah, agreed. I hate micromanagement! I like how water is so scarce in this mod that whipping production isn't as important as it is in vanilla. Being able to leave cities to just produce without having to check happiness every few turns is great

I guess what I'd like to see is spice all over the planet being fought over - but I guess that might just be impossible for the AI.

As for #2, part of this is kindof what we have already. The idea behind the commerce income from spice is that this comes from exporting the resource offworld. We also already have a few resources from happiness and health that are imported from offworld.

Cool, guess I need to play a bit more, I got up to importing units but not resources.

I also prefer the system where spice gives you commerce, rather than directly giving you happiness or health type bonuses.

Yep, that is definitely more "realistic".

But we're already planning to add some other benefits from Spice through wonders, like a Prescience chamber that gives espionage points depending on the number of spice resources you control.

Cool.. I like the idea of increasing benefits based on how much spice you control. At the moment you only really want to harvest the spice that your cities can work as a tile. Increasing benefits would provide an incentive to harvest more - but then there's the opportunity cost later in the game if you use it all up. That's a good dynamic to have in the game - kind of like forests in vanilla, you have to decide how many to chop to get an early lead, but also leave enough for health and the national park in the end game.

We're certainly planning to make spice a little more valuable, since "spice isn't important enough" is one of the common player feedback messages we get.

What about removing cottages? My first impression was they look out of place in the game, and that'd be a simple way to make spice more important.

It'd also encourage a specialist economy which (to me anyway) seems more in fitting with the theme of the game - small outpost fortress towns with specialised workers rather than sprawling cities of merchants.

Other random idea, what about having city borders pop much quicker? Seeing as borders are more about "how far away you can harvest spice" rather than "cultural influence" - culture doesn't seem to make too much sense in the middle of a desert.

 

[Ahriman]

Cool, guess I need to play a bit more, I got up to importing units but not resources.

You were almost there! Try building a "Landing Stage" building (national wonder)

t the moment you only really want to harvest the spice that your cities can work as a tile.

Note quite.... your House Spice Corporation building provides commerce for every spice resource you have. This can be a huge benefit!

What about removing cottages? My first impression was they look out of place in the game, and that'd be a simple way to make spice more important.

This would have pretty devastating consequences for game balance, unfortunately. The civ engine is built around working tiles, and the AI only defends cities and a small area around them. The AI would be very vulnerable to human players pillaging all their harvesters, and player commerce would be too dependent on the randomness of whether they got spice blows in their terrotory.

It'd also encourage a specialist economy which (to me anyway) seems more in fitting with the theme of the game

The game is designed to be able to support a powerful specialist economy (check out the Meritocracy and Faufreluches civics), but its more interesting if you can choose between a specialist economy or a cottage economy.

Other random idea, what about having city borders pop much quicker?

Yes, I've been thinking about tweaking this, and we did have something like that at some stage, but it was too much at the high end. David once posted the file for me where the cultural boundaries are controlled, but I lost the link. Maybe if I drop some hints he will post that file name again?

 

[davidlallen]

David once posted the file for me where the cultural boundaries are controlled, but I lost the link. Maybe if I drop some hints he will post that file name again?

gameinfo/civ4culturelevelinfo.xml

 

[fortydayweekend]

The game is designed to be able to support a powerful specialist economy (check out the Meritocracy and Faufreluches civics), but its more interesting if you can choose between a specialist economy or a cottage economy.

Yeah, on first glance Mercantilism + specialist bonus civics seem very powerful in the early game due to the short supply of water/pop - that free specialist is even more valuable than in vanilla, and foreign trade routes aren't that great when cities can only grow to 6-8 pop. But that's another issue and I haven't played enough or run any numbers on it.

Yes, I've been thinking about tweaking this, and we did have something like that at some stage, but it was too much at the high end. David once posted the file for me where the cultural boundaries are controlled, but I lost the link. Maybe if I drop some hints he will post that file name again?

I think it's CIV4CultureLevelInfo.xml in GameInfo

Cheers for the other tips!

 

[Ahriman]

Thanks!

Let's try this version instead. Halved cultural defense values, added 2 more categories (Potent and Dominant), and tweaked the expansion boundary values downward.

Is there a separate file that looks at the culture value names, that will cause a crash because I added more categories?

Is there a separate file that records the radius of the cultural boundary a city has? Or it just automatically goes up 1 for each new category?

Excel file with old values and new values also included.

Maybe we could try this in the next version?

 

[Xaos]

I have not read every piece of source material on Dune, but I do know from the movies that the spice gives you certain mental abilities. Also somehow spice is what allows instantaneos travel across the universe. It is a powerful, reality-altering substance.

Some suggestions:

- Spend spice to add experience points to units.
- Spend Spice to give units unusual abilities such as teleportation, invisibility, Auto withdrawal of enemy unit... (See the BTS content 'Afterworld' to see what I mean)
- Freeman could start with some odd abilities related to their spice 'infusion'

I think that there should be much more to spice than just cashflow.

-Just my 2 cents


<EDIT> from Dune WIKI:

Effects on those who consume melange are outlined below:

- Mind altering: it could awaken dormant parts of the human mind and encourage expanded sensory perceptions. In some humans (notably the Bene Gesserit, Guild Navigators, and some members of the Atreides bloodline), heavy doses led to powerful abilities that include prescience;
- Health benefits: taken regularly it increased life expectancy and fortified over all health levels (in many cases life expectancy was tripled);
- Addictiveness: the spice had narcotic properties, thus increasing demand and creating a large and hungry market for it. An individual's addiction to the spice would worsen the more they consumed it.
- Physical effects: sustained use of the spice led to human eyes being discolored so that the entire eye would be stained blue. Extensive exposure to the spice created a huge physical dependency that could radically alter the entire body (see Guild navigators).

 

[Ahriman]

We're certainly intending to research some of the other effects of spice, in things like a Prescience Chamber wonder, that gives espionage points for spice.

But I'm not sure that effects on combat units quite make sense. You're never going to be feeding large quantities of spice to large groups of ordinary soldiers, the cost would be extreme. Spice is just too valuable/expensive to distribute to plebs.

 

[Deliverator]

Return of the spice thread! Feedback on the 1.7.3 beta:

I am not sure about +3 commerce for a palance per 1 spice resource. I've played 5 or 6 games and didn't try to go an anti-spice route, but I've noticed that with a spice-route you can spam as many cities as you want, because if they grab some more spice, they outpay themselves from the beginning.

Also because it's not but , it means that more spice resources speed up research significally, leaving non-spicers behind.

I think it was not possible to do the same with a "common" economics, and also it means that "polotical" trait (+3 culture/turn) is may be the best trait in the game because your new cities start to bring you spice immediately.

I'm open to switching the palaces producing +3 gold instead of +3 commerce. What do others think?

 

[Deon]

Wow, have I really made so many typos? I need to sleep more .

 

[Ahriman]

I'm open to switching the palaces producing +3 gold instead of +3 commerce. What do others think?

I can see an argument either way. If we make it give gold, then running 100% science is a meaningful constraint, and even with a ton of spice you still have to actually get beakers elsewhere, from cottages or scientist specialists.

But, making it give gold also messes with how booster buildings (market, bank, library, etc.) work. If it gives commerce, I might run 75% science slider, and get some/moderate benefits from building both gold and beaker boosters in my capital and in all my other cities. If it gives gold, then all I really need to do is build gold boosters in my capital and then beaker boosters everywhere and run 100% science.

I'm not sure which open ends up better.

 

[Deon]

I see your point, but the current setup makes tech tree too short, and more you settle, faster you research (in opposition to common "bigger empire, lower research rate" which helps to balance Expansion vs Development). I don't have real suggestions about it yet, but it is something to think about.

 

[Ahriman]

If you can race through the tech tree too quickly (and I'm not sure that you can, on high difficulty level and Epic speed) then the solution is to increase tech beaker costs, which I'm certainly open to.

The most important thing is to get the balance right between Arrakis Spice and Arrakis Paradise. It used to be that paradise was much stronger, now with the spice silos and other spice buildings, I think Spice might be a bit more powerful.

Reducing the area of spice destroyed by fresh water (to 1 radius not 2) and/or reducing the water penalty cost for catchbasin building are good ways to boost Paradise.

Also:
I find that expanding fast in the early game (before tribunals) still has big city maintenance costs. And the AI does a pretty good job at rapidly expanding anyway. I think the game works fine where all the decent expansion space is taken up pretty quickly, and then you're right into clashing borders and conflict, I don't think that the game is as much fun before that point.

So, I don't see a strategic incentive to REx as a huge design problem.

 

[Deon]

I don't say that it's a bad design, but with paradise I was unable to research as fast as with spice. It's a thin matter though, maybe some research % from paradise would be enough to "balance" it.

 

[Ahriman]

A research bonus doesn't really make much canon/flavor sense. The right way to boost Paradise is to boost the value of terraforming - in particular by reducing the water penalty for catchbasin buildings, because the human player optimally shouldn't build them everywhere, but the AI player does.

The main problem with paradise IMO is the growth hit you take from building the catchbasin.

 

[Deon]

Yeah, that too. I was unable to run a good specialist economy because of that... While it doesn't make a lot of sense, because in the end that terraformed terrain should give more food than a water in the desert does. Probably bonus yields would help it?

 

[Ahriman]

While it doesn't make a lot of sense, because in the end that terraformed terrain should give more food than a water in the desert does.

In the end it gives massively more water, it just takes a while to get going.

Probably bonus yields would help it?

Confused here.
Terraformed terrain gives 1 water, and then 2 water, and sometimes even 3 water with a lake. Vs 0 water from terran.

Also: terraforming is designed to be better for a cottage economy than a specialist economy. Cottages get bonus commerce from fresh water, and you have to actually work tiles in order to get the water yields.
With really large cities you also tend to need Hereditary Rule, which means you can't use Meritocracy.

I find a specialist economy is more effective with spice; you just work the water tiles and bonuses, and use water discipline civic to boost yields (or Mercantilism), and use specialists for all the rest, with Meritocracy and Faufreluches.

* * *

The idea behind the penalty was to model having to save water like the Fremen do in order to start using it later. But we should try it with smaller penalties I think; maybe -1 water for catchbasin and -2 water for reservoir, instead of -3 for both.

 

[Deon]

Well, as I said, I tried terraforming only once and it was some time ago. I think I should try more before giving any more suggestions .