Where is that picture from? To me it looks Polynesian/Hawaiian.
New Civ Game Guide: Majapahit
- Thread starter FXS_Sar
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It's the Eastern variant of the Galley, seen used by Khmer and other non-Western civs.
That's clearly meant to be a Chinese design, Lonecat.
The sail is taken from Cantonese red folding fan sails.
The rigging equipment is western-pulley (to make it clearly recognisable as rigging, I'd say).
The front is a flat junk prow but with a keel underwater, rather than a flat bottom, again pointing to the South Chinese tradition.
It coming to a prominent point in the back is fairly weird, though and may be another way to help recognisability?
Lonecat Nekophrodite
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1. And this Cantonese 'Red Folding Fan' sails a very new.
2. I think FXis couldn't dig more in Asian Naval Engineerings or research if Chinese or other Asians even use any kind of pulleys in ships riggings. they would assume the common sense that Chinese and other Asians did use pulleys. I'm sure they do, but not sure which one. I've yet to visit Fort Noen Wong Siamese Naval Engineerings at Chantaburi someday. One of my uncles live in that city but not sure if he will be alive for long, or even if he knows where that museum in question is.
In addition, as a modder who did many pre-gunpowder ship models for Civ6 mod via Blender. it doesn't really make any differences unless you're really serious about this. even using loaned assets particularly those made by Firaxis in the first place is still a challenge to me because I have to do it all alone.
3. If this is not what Javanese / Majpahiti galleys should look like then what should it be (or at least neighbouring countries including Ayutthaya and Rattanakosin variants. Note that Before King Mongkut founded Royal Siamese Navy as European style navy, no native Siamese serves at sea as ships crew beyond paddle canoes or barges or boats, all crews are foreigners or immigrants. Either Chinese (Sailers), Malayans, Chams or anyone else from what's now Indonesia. I'm not sure if Makkasar people also served as ships crew or a member of Berserker Corps? There is (or was) a lake called 'Makkasan' here that said to be their dwellings near Bangkok (Now Ratchatewi district), the location which is now a Railroad Workshop for State Railways of Thailand.
พิพิธภัณฑสถานแห่งชาติพาณิชย์นาวี จันทบุรี :: Museum Thailand
พิพิธภัณฑสถานแห่งชาติพาณิชย์นาวี เปิดให้บริการอย่างเป็นทางการเมื่อวันที่ 9 มกราคม พ.ศ. 2544 โดยสมเด็จพระพี่นางเธอเจ้าฟ้ากัลยาณิวัฒนา กรมหลวงนราธิวาสราชนครินทร์ เสด็จฯ เป็นองค์ประธานในพิธีเปิดพิพิธภัณฑ์ นิทรรศการถาวรในพิพิธภัณฑ์ แบ่งออกเป็น 6 ห้อง ดังนี้ ห้องที่ 1...
www.museumthailand.com
Lonecat Nekophrodite
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Wait! Why Kingdoms and States south of Thailand / Siam (or oceanic Southeast Asia) always use the term 'Nagara' to call the entire country rather than just a 'City'? Does it ties with a long standing 'City States' traditions where one Big City means an Empire, and one's power is measured by lesser cities becoming their vassals and not the entire territory?
In the past' the term 'Muang' (เมือง) means 'An Entire State' as well as meaning an urban center. With a clear concepts of Modern States came to be in mid 19th Century, another Sanskrit word -- 'Pradesh' -- is loaned and used promimently to call an entire State, and 'Nakorn' (นคร) now describe a size of settlements as per Ministry of Interior definitions. which rated 'Nakorn' as 'Large'. Though the largest also has Sanskrit prefix 'Maha...' yes 'Mahanagara' which ported to Modern Thai as 'Mahanakorn' (มหานคร) Which is a nationally defined translations of 'Metropolis' which a greek term originally came from 'Maeter' (Mother) and 'Polis' (City). Thai definitions however chose 'Size' as Metropolis is always larger than usual, though back in the day the term 'Megalopolis' was also used colloquially until intensive urban developments of the late 20th Century gave out much bigger sprawling cities built WIDE AND TALL.
Why 'Pradesh' found no place in any Oceanic Southeast Asian languages AT ALL?
To an absurd degree given that this ship is used by the Han in-game, yeah.
But it's the same with plenty of details in the game. I've said it before and I stand by it. Civ 7 has an explicit policy against historical accuracy wherever it would impede recognisability, narratives, etc.
Think of a historical Hollywood film. You color-code the sides, you use color filters on grand shots to set the mood you require, you throw away helmets to not obstruct expensive actors' faces, you make drawn out boring affairs like battles and sieges into 5-10 minute segments filled to the brim with effects and action to keep the audience entertained. Artistic entertainment over boring reality.
And it's exactly this sort of "common sense" that drives the ahistorical design. If you cannot imagine a sailship without rigging, why would the game fight against your intuition and present one?
East Asians did know about pulleys and made use of them. But not on ship rigging, at least not until the periods of extensive contact with seafaring traditions that did use them, the European ships.
The screenshot comes from Han gameplay and the sailors on the ship are wearing Chinese clothes with fairly easily recognisable soldier caps from Red Cliff (the movie, late Han), same as the footsoldier models of Han.
The periodisation of the ship designs is clearly built on European history and the non-European examples are more randomly strewn together from all over time and place to give the rest of the world something visibly non-European and that's it.
SnowKomodo
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I am super stoked for this. Like, Civ is my favorite game and so every reveal is exciting regardless. But just a little extra gassed when your home nation gets repped
I like how they are portrayed. I could theoretically nitpick here and there, but when you are reducing a civilization to a few unique traits, they did a good job!
I like how they are portrayed. I could theoretically nitpick here and there, but when you are reducing a civilization to a few unique traits, they did a good job!
SnowKomodo
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You might enjoy Majapahit by Harold van der Linde then. It's relatively new, released months ago I believe. It's a history book that is sort of written in the style of a novel, making it a fun read. It presents key events in Game of Thrones-esque fashion at times, and imaginatively immerses you in the world of that kingdom
Empire of the Winds by Philip Bowring, meanwhile, is drier (relative to the above, not necessarily dry), but my preferred option for a broader look at Nusantara as a whole and a necessary exploration into important Maritime Southeast Asia that fans of history - particularly naval/maritime history - may enjoy
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Much cooler title, though.
