pre-release info New Civ Game Guide: Majapahit

[Eagle Pursuit]

Why Firaxis kept calling the Majapahit "Indonesia" until now:

 

[AriochIV]

So were the Dutch, Babylonians, Koreans, Swedes, Carthaginains-Phoenicians, Portuguese, Mayans and Canadians at various points in Civ VI history (well, City States, but same difference). All of them became full-fledge civs.

I wouldn't worry too much about being an independent power and the chance to become a civ in future expansions or DLCs.

It doesn't mean they'll never become a full civilization, but it does mean they won't do any time soon.

 

[King of Prussia]

I fully expect to see more bolder choices for leaders/Civs in a DLC than the base game. Same for their designs, as the game matures. Some of my favorite Civs in Civ6 turned the normal rules on their head.

I would also expect to see Civs like Austria, Georgia, Scythia, Netherlands, Byz, Ottomans and others make a return. Same for leaders like Frederick the Great/Prussia which would fit very well with the others. Bismark is another good option for germany

 

[Sagax]

Why Firaxis kept calling the Mapajahit "Indonesia" until now:

Next challenge - bring Gitarja back and actually let her name be Tribhuwannottunggadewi Jayawishnuwardhani in game

 

[Zaarin]

Scythia, of course, provides many of the same advantages, but Second Hand: they were largely replaced in western Asia by the Sarmatian tribes

Although the Sarmatians probably spoke a Scythian language so that helps.

I would love to see Scythia back, but If we are realistic, there are two alternatives that seem more probable. Parthia and the Huns. I expect the Huns' return the most out of all three choices because they were absent from Civilization VI. The common problem with the Huns and the Scythians though is the lack of authentic city names. The Scythians at least can get the names of their tribes as city names. Parthia will be entirely new to the series and doesn't have that problem, but I don't know if they will make an appearance with Achaemenid Persia in the game and Sassanid Persia as a possible civilization for the Exploration Age.

TBH I'd see a Parthian design looking identical to our current iteration of Persia but with horse archers in place of Immortals (and it feels like a missed opportunity making Achaemenid Persia so one-note warmongery). Meanwhile, the Huns lasted a blink of an eye as a confederation and seem like a better candidate for an Independent People. I agree with Boris that Scythians (collectively, representing all the Scythian and Saka peoples) or Xiong-nu are probably the best choices for an Antiquity steppe people civ.

Are there any associated wonder options for them?

Tsarskyi Kurgan, perhaps.

It doesn't mean they'll never become a full civilization, but it does mean they won't do any time soon.

Granada was on Spain's city list at launch and upgraded to a city-state in the first DLC in Civ6; I don't think it gives any indication at all for timeframe.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

Why Firaxis kept calling the Mapajahit "Indonesia" until now:

Now pronounce it in Javanese for a secret extra way.

 

[gdr_willter]

Huns were absent because they are a One-Note Civ: they attacked people, Period. The 'Hunnic Empire' didn't last long enough to provide trade contacts, or anything but mercenaries for Rome and Byzantium. The only thing they've got going is Name Recognition, which admittedly is something the game seems to be preferring, but is thin stuff to make a good game design from.

Well, I'm considering the possibility that FXS try to equate Hun and Xiongnu. As long as I know, they already did it for the Civ 5 Hun music.

 

[Zaarin]

Well, I'm considering the possibility that FXS try to equate Hun and Xiongnu. As long as I know, they already did it for the Civ 5 Hun music.

Blame Disney for popularizing it. Both the Xiongnu and the Hephthalites are tantalizing connections for the Huns, but both are based on pretty tenuous evidence. (All that being said...I will welcome the return of the Huns with abandon if it means the return of "Li Ling Si Han.") Given how many uniques a Civ7 civ requires, I think designing a Hun civ would be difficult.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

I try to keep my personal preferences out of my Civ work, but I'm really excited about Majapahit. Many of the stories from that place and time are just fascinating - the ambitious and bold rise to power via the betrayal of the Mongols, the pathos of the decline in power, the rise of the sultanates (in Demak and elsewhere), the retrenchment in Bali, the architecture and music, the glimpse of a Hinduism so long estranged from the subcontinent. As much as I also love what was to follow (and, of course, the other places that I work on for Civ), Majapahit is pretty cool.

 

[Zaarin]

the glimpse of a Hinduism so long estranged from the subcontinent.

Could you talk more about this? I know Hinduism is a very varied religion (or set of religions), but I'm only very, very passingly familiar with its expressions outside of India.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Tsarskyi Kurgan, perhaps.

I hate using a modern language title for an ancient construction, so unless someone knows the original Scythian, Royal Kurgan would be better.

It has the advantage of being right in the middle of the area of the so-called 'Royal Scyths' in the Crimea, right next to the ancient Geek colony of Panticapaion, which was a satellite of the Royal Scyths.

The Xiong-Nu, by the way, also have, potentially, a 'native' Wonder: the Deer Stones of eastern Mongolia that stretch all the way to the edge of the Scythian territory and date from Bronze Age to the beginning of the Classical era. Fields of standing stones intricately carved and sometimes even colored, they would be a very unique graphic element.

 

[gdr_willter]

Blame Disney for popularizing it. Both the Xiongnu and the Hephthalites are tantalizing connections for the Huns, but both are based on pretty tenuous evidence. (All that being said...I will welcome the return of the Huns with abandon if it means the return of "Li Ling Si Han.") Given how many uniques a Civ7 civ requires, I think designing a Hun civ would be difficult.

Well that's exactly why I want the proper Xiongnu civ for the rival of Han, but it's still possible to describe about this theoritical connection between Hun and Xiongnu in their Civilopedia page.

 

[Waranlee]

I try to keep my personal preferences out of my Civ work, but I'm really excited about Majapahit. Many of the stories from that place and time are just fascinating - the ambitious and bold rise to power via the betrayal of the Mongols, the pathos of the decline in power, the rise of the sultanates (in Demak and elsewhere), the retrenchment in Bali, the architecture and music, the glimpse of a Hinduism so long estranged from the subcontinent. As much as I also love what was to follow (and, of course, the other places that I work on for Civ), Majapahit is pretty cool.

I want to ask, why was Majapahit chosen as the name of the civ, but include Borobudur which is older?


A lesser known fact was pointed out by Wayan Jarrah Sastrawan: Majapahit is not a kingdom name, but a capital name.
The name of the polity was actually the Kingdom of Java (Javamandala or Javadvipamandala). Gajah Mada is the prime minister of Javadvipamandala, after getting a promotion from being a minister of Majapahit. It hinted that from being a minister of the capital, he was promoted to the prime minister of a kingdom/polity. These information are recorded in inscriptions, it is not theorized or assumed. IMO the name of the civ should be Java, using Majapahit as the civ's name is like using Washington D.C. instead of USA, Yasodharapura instead of Khmer, or London instead of England/Britain. This is a concern by a historian of Old Java (Classical Java), Wayan Jarrah Sastrawan. He tried to spread awareness through his posts -- Kadiri was not the name of a 12th-century Javanese kingdom, just like Majapahit was not the name of a 14-15th-century Javanese kingdom. When China recorded Java they either recorded Shepo guo or Zhaowa guo - it means the same, "Kingdom of Java". The Yuan dynasty, similarly, did not attack Singhasari guo or something like that, but Zhaowa guo (Kingdom of Java).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1521599391987077122

When Ma Huan (Zheng He's translator) came to Java, he recorded that Majapahit was only one of the cities in Zhaowa guo. Naming Majapahit as a kingdom name is one of the biggest historiographical mistakes in Indonesian history. The addition of Borobudur (8th/9th century building) can be accepted if they the name "Java" was used instead of Majapahit. Borobudur was built in the Medang/Mataram era (8 to 11th century). Sanjaya, a king of Medang/Mataram, never proclaimed himself as the king of Mataram/Medang, but as a king of Java.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1564613758038818829

The other "counterpart" of Majapahit follows the naming of a polity based on their mandala name, not a capital name. It is the same reason why Srivijaya is not called Minanga Tamvan kingdom or Palembang kingdom, Malayu is not called Dharmasraya kingdom, or Sunda as Pakuan kingdom. In this map, Srivijaya (not Palembang) is presented as Mandala, but because of the historiographical mistake, it showed Majapahit as Mandala instead of Java or Javadvipa.

The historiographical understanding of SEA polities is not equal. On the other side, you'll find a polity that is seemingly stable for a long time (Sunda kingdom of 669–1579) and/or existed for a long time despite conflicts (Khmer empire of 802–1431), on the other hand, you may see a fragmented "polities" like Mataram to Kadiri to Singhasari to Majapahit in Java. But if the same historiographical understanding is applied to Java, there is only one name for Mandala in Java: Javamandala or Javadvipamandala.
While monarchs rose and fell (as did the Kraton/palace), the system and institution of Java were robust and continuous from the 8th to the 15th century, until it was toppled by the rise of Islam in the 16th century.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1521608929113001984

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Actually I can't recall the name of an asian galley but it is based on what Portuguese described as 'Terror ship'. and armed with arrays of swivel guns and a handful of big guns, as @Boris Gudenuf described.
but Siamese evolutionary path that has Majpahit being the midpoint is still off to me. Sure Ayutthayan naval powers were drawn from Malayans and one of many Indonesian tribes invited to settle near the City itself. (these were navy crews, either as saiors or as oarsmen. native Ayutthayans were excel at riverine navigations but not at sea, they aren't really good at oars, all river barges are paddled boats.)

At least my guess is right, that a gun galley earlier labelled as Kalam is actually Majpahit Cetbang.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I try to keep my personal preferences out of my Civ work, but I'm really excited about Majapahit. Many of the stories from that place and time are just fascinating - the ambitious and bold rise to power via the betrayal of the Mongols, the pathos of the decline in power, the rise of the sultanates (in Demak and elsewhere), the retrenchment in Bali, the architecture and music, the glimpse of a Hinduism so long estranged from the subcontinent. As much as I also love what was to follow (and, of course, the other places that I work on for Civ), Majapahit is pretty cool.

But the pathway that it becomes Siam in the Age 3 is off to me. Under which ground did they found Siam? and their ancestors were Funan Khmers.?

 

[Lord Lakely]

Next challenge - bring Gitarja back and actually let her name be Tribhuwannottunggadewi Jayawishnuwardhani in game

Why do you hate Sarah Darney so much?

Now pronounce it in Javanese for a secret extra way.

Why do YOU hate Sarah Darney so much????

 

[chaosprophet]

They don't have enough leaders to announce one every week. They've already announced Trung Trac; thus far each regional/ethnic group gets one and exactly one leader (not counting personas and DLC).

Although we did get confirmation there will be a first look this week, regardless if associated Majapahit or not.

And on enough leaders for every week, depends if that most leaders for a civ game take in account civ 4, if yes that means at least 20 base game leaders needed to make it work. Then with Tecumseh and Napoleon, that means 22 first look needed (the other 5 are persona and are revealed in the same first look as the other version).

22 first look, one per week, would mean they would end it at the week the "early access" for the deluxe/founder editions.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

Thanks for your questions! Here are some answers:

Waranlee- Java wouldn’t be a bad term to use here, or the name of the capital (Wilwatikwa) but I preferred Majapahit as it was pointing more specifically to that particular dynasty; much like with Maurya, whereas "Java" could refer to multiple different polities over time. "Majapahit" has become standard use for that particular empire in historical sources, and the name was neither as general as Java (or Civ6's Indonesia - I think I suggested Majapahit for Civ6 as well) nor as specific as Wilwatikwa (which I don't think many even familiar with SEA history would recognize). So, in other words, walking the line between being overly general and overly specific. Regarding Borobudur, yes, this was build prior to Majapahit times, but without the Shalendra it best fits both the magnificence of a wonder and of the civs that are available best fits with Majapahit.

Lonecat - with regards to unlocking new civilizations, these aren't always pointing to a direct ethnic or political successor! Rome unlocks the Normans, yes, but this is not making the claim that the Normans were a Roman offshoot. There are different levels of connection that we used to determine unlocks - some of these are a direct ancestor (e.g. Han to Ming), some of these are within a same or neighboring geographic or overlapping cultural spheres (e.g. Maurya to Chola, Mississippian to Shawnee), and some are the best fit geographically that we could do given the roster of civs (keeping in mind present-day regional tensions). Leaders, too, have their recommended pairings based either on historical connections or, lacking these, a best regional fit.

Given unlimited time and budget, it would be cool to have multiple, branching paths with each point in history (and alternate histories) mapped out with unique art and design, but given the level of detail given to each here (and the need to delilver the game within a reasonable time and price tag), we had to make things fit as best they could.

 

[The Fanatical]

Tsarskyi Kurgan, perhaps.

I hate using a modern language title for an ancient construction, so unless someone knows the original Scythian, Royal Kurgan would be better.

I can't agree more, it's the same problem Yazilikaya faces. Sometimes the most basic words of an extinct language are lost to time, and it is impossible to reconstruct a name for a wonder if the surviving historical sources don't mention the exact name. For the Hittite World Wonder, perhaps the name Hekur Siunas (rock sanctuary of the gods) would fit better, but it is unknown if Firaxis will take that approach, judging by the fact that the Maya World Wonder was named Mundo Perdido.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

I suppose, in order of preference, I might put:
Dynasty name (if significant): e.g. Maurya, Chola
Empire name: e.g. Rome
People or culture name: e.g. Greek - a people without a polity can be kind of difficult at times (a "blob" in this forum's parlance), and I'm not that keen on it if avoidable.
Archaeological culture name: e.g. Mississippian

Also, we bend a bit when something is popularly known as one thing rather than another (e.g. Inca instead of Tiwantinsuyu). People here might know, but you imagine the fans going "why did they put Achamaenid in the game, and not Persia!" "What's Kambuja? Where's Khmer?" "What's Hellas? Where's Greece?"