The Thread Where We Discuss Guns and Gun Control

[Sommerswerd]

Early cannonballs were made of stone...

For reference

 

[zxcvbob]

When I was learning to survival camp, we'd use two rocks to shoot sparks. I bet that could be adapted towards being a weapon.

And if you ever want to truly weaponize rocks, watch the Star Trek episode involving the Gorn.

Or read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

 

[Samson]

NRA disrespectful of everyone on phone call after Columbine

The victims:

NRA OFFICIAL KAYNE ROBINSON: Is there something concrete that we can offer? Not because guns are responsible, but because we care about these people? Is there anything? ... Does that look crass or ...
NRA LOBBYIST JIM BAKER: You mean the legislative?
ROBINSON: No, I'm talking about something concrete ...
PR CONSULTANT TONY MAKRIS: Like a victims fund ...
ROBINSON: Yeah, we create a victims fund, and we, uh, we give the victims a million dollars or something like that, uh. ... Does that look bad, or does it look uh ...
MAKRIS: Well, I mean, that can be twisted too. I mean, why ... why are you giving money? You feel responsible?
BAKER: No. ... Well, you're — true. It can be twisted, but we feel sympathetic and ...
NRA SPOKESPERSON BILL POWERS: Respectful.​

The members:

Talking about how to run the NRA's annual meeting in Denver

"At that same period where they're going to be burying these children, we're going to be having media ... trying to run through the exhibit hall, looking at kids fondling firearms, which is going to be a horrible, horrible, horrible juxtaposition," says NRA lobbyist Jim Baker on the conference call.

"You know, the other problem is holding a member meeting without an exhibit hall. The people you are most likely to get in that member meeting without an exhibit hall are the nuts," says LaPierre.
"Made that point earlier. I agree," says Makris. "The fruitcakes are going to show up."
Says Hammer: "If you pull down the exhibit hall, that's not going to leave anything for the media except the members meeting, and you're going to have the wackos ... with all kinds of crazy resolutions, with all kinds of, of dressing like a bunch of hillbillies and idiots. And, and it's gonna, it's gonna be the worst thing you can imagine."
​

Bush senior:

After Oklahoma City bombing, which targeted the ATF a week after the NRA put out a fundraising letter calling the ATF "jackbooted government thugs,":
​

"What we're trying to avoid here, I think, is what happened after the Oklahoma City bombing," says PR adviser McQueen. "When we lost control of a situation and the result was a half a million members, the president of the United States bailing out on us and a firestorm of negative media that if you went back and looked at, it was probably in the hundreds of millions of dollars in opposition to us and our point of view."
"And I think this will be worse," responds Baker.
​

Arms industry:

MAKRIS: Jim, let me ask you a question. ... What's the industry going to do?
BAKER: I think the industry will do whatever we ask them to do.
LAPIERRE: Do you think they have a preference, Jim? Is there anybody we ought to be talking to?
BAKER: I talked to Delfay this morning, and he said they stand ready to help us orchestrate whatever we want to do. They're just waiting to know.
Robert Delfay was the head of an industry trade group.
​

Republicans(?):

"We got a call from Congressman Tancredo, who is ... as good as they get, and he's nervous as a cat on a hot tin roof," says Baker.
LaPierre claims that Senate Majority Whip Don Nickles, R-Okla., had secretly asked him for talking points to use after the shooting.
"I was talking to Nickles' office this morning, and what they told me is they're planning on sending them all to school because what they wanted us to do was secretly provide them with talking points," LaPierre says.​

 

[Samson]

Republican Thomas Massie condemned for Christmas guns photo

What strikes me is that the gun that he is holding looks like a light machine gun, but as I think they are illegal presumably is actually just theater, and theater of the worst and most dangerous type. If law makers are going around with guns that look illegal does that not make it harder for everyone to enforce the law? Added to the point that you have a massive heavy gun that is no good for what you should be using it for, and does not work for what would require a gun to be that heavy.

 

[Spidernova]

Republican Thomas Massie condemned for Christmas guns photo

What strikes me is that the gun that he is holding looks like a light machine gun, but as I think they are illegal presumably is actually just theater, and theater of the worst and most dangerous type. If law makers are going around with guns that look illegal does that not make it harder for everyone to enforce the law? Added to the point that you have a massive heavy gun that is no good for what you should be using it for, and does not work for what would require a gun to be that heavy.

6
There's a machine gun registry, where guns made before May 19, 1986 are legal and registered. They're tens of thousands of dollars , but if you have money, you absolutely can get a legal machine gun. Article calls it a license, but the ATF tax stamp really is more of a fee than anything else.

 

[emzie]

Republican Thomas Massie condemned for Christmas guns photo

What strikes me is that the gun that he is holding looks like a light machine gun, but as I think they are illegal presumably is actually just theater, and theater of the worst and most dangerous type. If law makers are going around with guns that look illegal does that not make it harder for everyone to enforce the law? Added to the point that you have a massive heavy gun that is no good for what you should be using it for, and does not work for what would require a gun to be that heavy.

It's a machine gun, fully automatic. He paid $69k for it.
https://twitter.com/NoCoupUSA/status/1467265945609457664?t=9FgzggX4JcWCtq6xVbto4A&s=19

 

[Broken_Erika]

Looks like an old M60, they've been mostly phased out in favor of more modern designs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M60_machine_gun

 

[El_Machinae]

I'm not afraid of the person who wants a $69k licensed weapon. I'm afraid of the person who wants a $300 unlicensed one

 

[Samson]

I'm not afraid of the person who wants a $69k licensed weapon. I'm afraid of the person who wants a $300 unlicensed one

I would be afraid if that guy was running my country.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I'm not afraid of the person who wants a $69k licensed weapon. I'm afraid of the person who wants a $300 unlicensed one

Ethan Crumbley just shot up that school in Oakland, Michigan, with what was, presumably, a "licensed" weapon.

Which... on a side note... has me again thinking we should have some sort of strict civil liability for gun owners who buy guns that are then used to commit crimes.

 

[El_Machinae]

Which... on a side note... has me again thinking we should have some sort of strict civil liability for gun owners who buy guns that are then used to commit crimes.

If it was up to me, I'd have tight insurance requirements for gun ownership, so that there are always funds for the victims

 

[Sommerswerd]

If it was up to me, I'd have tight insurance requirements for gun ownership, so that there are always funds for the victims

Sort of like when you buy a car, they won't give you the keys until you can show proof of insurance for the vehicle. So you literally have to call your insurance company from the dealership and have them fax/email the dealership proof that the vehicle is now insured under your name, before you can even leave the lot with the vehicle.

 

[Birdjaguar]

All guns should be registered in a national database and the registered owner liable for any activity tied to guns they own. Changing the registration or reporting it stolen prior to any criminal action with it would be the only way to avoid liability. Not registering a gun would initiate a $1000 a day fine after a specific date. Gun stores would be the owners prior to any sales to the public so failing to change registration after a sale would make them liable.

 

[Sommerswerd]

All guns should be registered in a national database and the registered owner liable for any activity tied to guns they own. Changing the registration or reporting it stolen prior to any criminal action with it would be the only way to avoid liability. Not registering a gun would initiate a $1000 a day fine after a specific date. Gun stores would be the owners prior to any sales to the public so failing to change registration after a sale would make them liable.

This is all exactly what I had in mind initially, when I first stated thinking about this kind of system. One thing I added was that prior to the gun store taking possession of the guns, the manufacturers would be the ones who are considered the owners, for liability purposes. However the more I thought about it the more fatal loopholes I started coming up with.

1. The first, most glaring problem is "ghost guns". These are guns that are actually manufactured in unregistered, underground/black-market workshops, using stolen, and/or duplicated molds of legitimate gunmakers. These guns are untraceable, as they never have any legitimate registration and are sold strictly to black market purchasers, specifically for the purpose of committing crimes with untraceable guns. This phenomenon is apparently a non-insignificant source of the guns used in crimes.

One thought I had for dealing with this problem is creating a similar liability system for ammunition as well, but that's a whole other conversation.

 

[Sommerswerd]

2. Another problem... Allowing people to "report it stolen", means anytime you want to let someone commit a crime with guns that are registered to you, you can just "report it stolen" right before, or right after, you sell it to them, under the table. So you would create this huge market for "reported stolen" guns that middle men would then sell at a markup to folks wanting to commit crimes. "Oh noes! So sorry a case of Glock pistols went missing from my shop! Thieves must have stolen them! I didn't hear them break in over the sound of the money counting machine counting all this money that I in no way got from the thieves under the table."

What I think instead, is that you're liable, especially if your gun is stolen. Why would letting your gun be stolen get you off the hook? You should have kept it secure. You're liable. The only way to get off the hook for a gun once you own it, is to have proof that you sold it (or destroyed it) or otherwise transferred ownership to someone else, AND reported the transfer to the national database with the buyer's required personal info.

There's other problems, but those are the first two that I thought of.

 

[Aiken_Drumn]

Republican Thomas Massie condemned for Christmas guns photo

What strikes me is that the gun that he is holding looks like a light machine gun, but as I think they are illegal presumably is actually just theater, and theater of the worst and most dangerous type. If law makers are going around with guns that look illegal does that not make it harder for everyone to enforce the law? Added to the point that you have a massive heavy gun that is no good for what you should be using it for, and does not work for what would require a gun to be that heavy.

This is THE most American thing I have seen in a good while. Insane this is reality. Can we please return to the correct timeline?

 

[mitsho]

2. Another problem... Allowing people to "report it stolen", means anytime you want to let someone commit a crime with guns that are registered to you, you can just "report it stolen" right before, or right after, you sell it to them, under the table. So you would create this huge market for "reported stolen" guns that middle men would then sell at a markup to folks wanting to commit crimes. "Oh noes! So sorry a case of Glock pistols went missing from my shop! Thieves must have stolen them! I didn't hear them break in over the sound of the money counting machine counting all this money that I in no way got from the thieves under the table."

You can only pull this trick of once. After a while, the "report it stolen" will not get believed. Also you do have to fake a break in and if you are found out, the fines will be hefty. If you wanna go black-market, there would be easier ways, for once the huge mountain of already existing guns in the US already. How do you register them all at once? I wouldn't fear for such complicated fraud when there would be way easier methods.

And that's the argument against your other point as well. It's okay when the instruments aren't a 100% effective. You're already a huge way there when you can clean up the big majority of "normal people". Worry about the next steps after that.

This is THE most American thing I have seen in a good while. Insane this is reality. Can we please return to the correct timeline?

Yeah, I do agree, how can an American member of parliament not afford a couch large enough for his whole family?

Seriously though, what's worrying though is that this kind of imagery apparently works in the US. It gets him attention, it gets him votes - and it makes me sick.

 

[El_Machinae]

"Report it stolen" would be solved by the liability insurance following the gun after it's stolen. If you lost too many guns, the insurance would crank your premiums

 

[Birdjaguar]

Yes required $1 Million or more insurance per gun would be important.

 

[amadeus]

As tacky as that photo is, @Samson, it is legal in much of the United States to own a machine gun. My very cursory reading of the law says that the owner needs to have a license and the gun cannot be manufactured after 1986.