The Thread Where We Discuss Guns and Gun Control

[Sommerswerd]

The NRA Supported Gun Control When the Black Panthers Had the Weapons​

Back in the 1960s, even the NRA supported gun control to disarm the group.

With each passing day, the debate for or against gun control rages on within the United States. And although the National Rifle Association (NRA) currently leads the charge for the rights of citizens to carry guns of all types with little to no interference from the government, the original gun rights advocates to take that stance were the Black Panthers.Throughout the late 1960s, the militant black nationalist group used their understanding of the finer details of California’s gun laws to underscore their political statements about the subjugation of African-Americans. In 1967, 30 members of the Black Panthers protested on the steps of the California statehouse armed with .357 Magnums, 12-gauge shotguns and .45-caliber pistols and announced, “The time has come for black people to arm themselves.”The display so frightened politicians—including California governor Ronald Reagan—that it helped to pass the Mulford Act, a state bill prohibiting the open carry of loaded firearms, along with an addendum prohibiting loaded firearms in the state Capitol. The 1967 bill took California down the path to having some of the strictest gun laws in America and helped jumpstart a surge of national gun control restrictions. “The law was part of a wave of laws that were passed in the late 1960s regulating guns, especially to target African-Americans,” says Adam Winkler, author of Gunfight: The Battle Over the Right to Bear Arms.

In the 1920s and 1930s, the NRA supported restrictions on who could carry guns on the streets in order to decrease hostility towards European immigrants—who were known to openly carry weapons at the time—within the country. And after the assassinations of Martin Luther King, Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy in 1968, the NRA backed the Gun Control Act that passed the same year, which put substantial restrictions on the purchase of guns based on mental illness, drug addiction and age, among other factors. Ironically, it was the gun control laws that were put into effect against African-Americans and the Black Panthers that led “rural white conservatives” across the country to fear any restriction of their own guns, Winkler says. In less than a decade, the NRA would go from backing gun control regulations to inhibit groups they felt threatened by to refusing to support any gun control legislation at all.

https://www.history.com/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-support-mulford-act

 

[EgonSpengler]

The NRA Supported Gun Control When the Black Panthers Had the Weapons​

Back in the 1960s, even the NRA supported gun control to disarm the group.


https://www.history.com/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-support-mulford-act

Want to get a conservative governor to sign gun control legislation?

Spoiler :

 

[IglooDame]

Want to get a conservative governor to sign gun control legislation?

<pic removed>

That's old-school. Nowadays those fellows need to be wearing dresses.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Why ghost guns are America's fastest-growing gun problem​

Ghost guns are coming under fire from gun-control advocates. But why are these weapons so difficult to trace? And can anything be done to keep them from getting into the wrong hands?
Manuel Yambo had never heard of a "ghost" gun until his 16-year-old daughter was killed by one.
He was at home, getting ready for work, when he got a call that every parent dreads. His daughter Angellyh had been hit by a stray bullet near her school. Before he could get to the hospital, another call came in: She was dead. He didn't believe it until he saw her for himself.
It was just a few months ago that Angellyh was celebrating her sixteenth birthday, dancing with her father wearing a pink gown and a crown.

"Angellyh, she was funny, she came out like me," Mr Yambo remembers.
Officials told him the 17-year-old suspect used a ghost gun, which is a privately made firearm that is unregistered and untraceable. Nowadays, anyone with access to the internet can buy the parts needed to make a gun without a background check. Tutorials online explain how to assemble the pieces into a fully functioning firearm with just basic tools in less than an hour.

"I was just in shock how easy it was to get it," Mr Yambo told the BBC. "You would think things like that, you can't just order it online as if it was a toy."
Experts are calling ghost guns the fastest-growing gun safety problem in America. The number of ghost guns recovered from crime scenes by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), has risen by more than 1,000% since 2017.
In New York City, where Mr Yambo lives, the NYPD seized the first ghost gun back in 2018, recovering 17 in total that year. In 2019, it was 50. By 2020, the number was 150. And then in 2021, it was up to 275.

At the ATF's National Integrated Ballistic Information Network facility in Washington, DC, ballistic evidence is evaluated and matched to crime scenes from across the country. But without serial numbers on the gun frames, it is virtually impossible to trace ghost guns and track down dealers who are selling guns illegally to minors or to people without proper firearm licenses.
"Pretty much anyone can get these ghost guns and order parts and make a gun that's just as well as the guns we carry," ATF officer Jerome McClinton told the BBC.
Last August, new regulations introduced by the Biden administration came into effect that say key products used to make ghost guns qualify as traditional firearms, and thus must include serial numbers. Those components include commonly sold, pre-packaged ghost gun kits that are easily converted into firearms, as well as functional "frames" or "receivers".

"This rule will make it harder for criminals and other prohibited persons to obtain untraceable guns," said Attorney General Merrick Garland at the time. "It will help to ensure that law enforcement officers can retrieve the information they need to solve crimes. And it will help reduce the number of untraceable firearms flooding our communities."
There are also bans on ghost guns in about a dozen states. But David Pucino, the deputy chief counsel at the Giffords Law Center, a gun-control advocacy group, said the new regulations aren't comprehensive enough because they don't cover all parts that can be used to make a ghost gun, such as some "unfinished" frames or receivers. He also said that without a national framework, gun traffickers can simply move ghost guns from states where they are legal to states where they are banned.
In October, a group of senators asked the ATF to provide a report on enforcement of the law, but the agency has told Congress it is worried more robust action would lose in court, after several rulings by the Supreme Court affirming the Second Amendment broadly protects gun owners from restrictions.

• How many US mass shootings have there been in 2023?
• Where does US gun control go from here?

Ghost guns are also becoming an international problem, even in countries with tight restrictions on weapons. Some are being trafficked out of the United States, such as gun parts that are shipped directly to Mexico, where there is fear they could be used by cartels. In Western Europe, 3D printers have been used to make ghost guns, Mr Pucino said.
The ATF has cautioned that America's ghost gun trend could take off abroad.
"I would say that if ghost guns has not been an issue for those other countries, then it's probably going to be eventually," said ATF Special Agent in Charge Charlie Patterson.

The growing proliferation of ghost guns has inevitably led to closer scrutiny of the various manufacturers. In 2022, New York's attorney general sued several online retailers for allegedly selling illegal unfinished and unserialised frames and receivers. This January, a New York court granted an injunction in that lawsuit, effectively pulling ghost guns from the market in the state.
Polymer80, the largest ghost-gun manufacturer in the US, has been the subject of much of the ire from lawmakers across the country.
In addition, Washington, DC, won a $4m (£3.2m) judgment against the company for violating consumer protection laws by falsely claiming that its weapons are legal in the District and for selling illegal guns to DC consumers.

But Loran Kelly, the co-founder of Polymer80, called the concerns over ghost guns a "myth," and a "divisive non-issue". He is appealing the DC ruling, and said other lawsuits are frivolous. He also secured a victory in Nevada, where his company is based, when a judge struck down parts of the state's ghost gun ban, calling them "unconstitutionally vague".
Mr Kelly argued that ghost guns make up a small fraction of the total number of weapons recovered by law enforcement. In 2021, the ATF recovered 460,024 guns, compared to 19,273 ghost guns.
While Mr Kelly said he felt for Angellyh's family, he was personally against any government regulation of firearms based on his interpretation of the Second Amendment right to bear arms.
He dismissed statistics, such as those that show firearms are the leading cause of death for American children and teens, as missing the point.
"People need to separate in their minds violence and guns," he said.
"If we have troubled kids or we have people who feel disenfranchised in this country, which we do in spades, that's the source of this (violence)."
It's a distinction Angellyh's family does not make - Mr Yambo blamed the manufacturers for her death, and is starting a foundation to help those affected by gun violence.
"Who were these guns made for? Why were they sold in parts - in order to avoid being detected by the Department of Justice and the ATF?" he asked.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65170507

 

[Sommerswerd]

Why ghost guns are America's fastest-growing gun problem​

Ghost guns are coming under fire from gun-control advocates. But why are these weapons so difficult to trace? And can anything be done to keep them from getting into the wrong hands?
Manuel Yambo had never heard of a "ghost" gun until his 16-year-old daughter was killed by one.
He was at home, getting ready for work, when he got a call that every parent dreads. His daughter Angellyh had been hit by a stray bullet near her school. Before he could get to the hospital, another call came in: She was dead. He didn't believe it until he saw her for himself.
It was just a few months ago that Angellyh was celebrating her sixteenth birthday, dancing with her father wearing a pink gown and a crown.

"Angellyh, she was funny, she came out like me," Mr Yambo remembers.
Officials told him the 17-year-old suspect used a ghost gun, which is a privately made firearm that is unregistered and untraceable. Nowadays, anyone with access to the internet can buy the parts needed to make a gun without a background check. Tutorials online explain how to assemble the pieces into a fully functioning firearm with just basic tools in less than an hour.

"I was just in shock how easy it was to get it," Mr Yambo told the BBC. "You would think things like that, you can't just order it online as if it was a toy."
Experts are calling ghost guns the fastest-growing gun safety problem in America. The number of ghost guns recovered from crime scenes by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), has risen by more than 1,000% since 2017.
In New York City, where Mr Yambo lives, the NYPD seized the first ghost gun back in 2018, recovering 17 in total that year. In 2019, it was 50. By 2020, the number was 150. And then in 2021, it was up to 275.

At the ATF's National Integrated Ballistic Information Network facility in Washington, DC, ballistic evidence is evaluated and matched to crime scenes from across the country. But without serial numbers on the gun frames, it is virtually impossible to trace ghost guns and track down dealers who are selling guns illegally to minors or to people without proper firearm licenses.
"Pretty much anyone can get these ghost guns and order parts and make a gun that's just as well as the guns we carry," ATF officer Jerome McClinton told the BBC.
Last August, new regulations introduced by the Biden administration came into effect that say key products used to make ghost guns qualify as traditional firearms, and thus must include serial numbers. Those components include commonly sold, pre-packaged ghost gun kits that are easily converted into firearms, as well as functional "frames" or "receivers".

"This rule will make it harder for criminals and other prohibited persons to obtain untraceable guns," said Attorney General Merrick Garland at the time. "It will help to ensure that law enforcement officers can retrieve the information they need to solve crimes. And it will help reduce the number of untraceable firearms flooding our communities."
There are also bans on ghost guns in about a dozen states. But David Pucino, the deputy chief counsel at the Giffords Law Center, a gun-control advocacy group, said the new regulations aren't comprehensive enough because they don't cover all parts that can be used to make a ghost gun, such as some "unfinished" frames or receivers. He also said that without a national framework, gun traffickers can simply move ghost guns from states where they are legal to states where they are banned.
In October, a group of senators asked the ATF to provide a report on enforcement of the law, but the agency has told Congress it is worried more robust action would lose in court, after several rulings by the Supreme Court affirming the Second Amendment broadly protects gun owners from restrictions.

• How many US mass shootings have there been in 2023?
• Where does US gun control go from here?

Ghost guns are also becoming an international problem, even in countries with tight restrictions on weapons. Some are being trafficked out of the United States, such as gun parts that are shipped directly to Mexico, where there is fear they could be used by cartels. In Western Europe, 3D printers have been used to make ghost guns, Mr Pucino said.
The ATF has cautioned that America's ghost gun trend could take off abroad.
"I would say that if ghost guns has not been an issue for those other countries, then it's probably going to be eventually," said ATF Special Agent in Charge Charlie Patterson.

The growing proliferation of ghost guns has inevitably led to closer scrutiny of the various manufacturers. In 2022, New York's attorney general sued several online retailers for allegedly selling illegal unfinished and unserialised frames and receivers. This January, a New York court granted an injunction in that lawsuit, effectively pulling ghost guns from the market in the state.
Polymer80, the largest ghost-gun manufacturer in the US, has been the subject of much of the ire from lawmakers across the country.
In addition, Washington, DC, won a $4m (£3.2m) judgment against the company for violating consumer protection laws by falsely claiming that its weapons are legal in the District and for selling illegal guns to DC consumers.

But Loran Kelly, the co-founder of Polymer80, called the concerns over ghost guns a "myth," and a "divisive non-issue". He is appealing the DC ruling, and said other lawsuits are frivolous. He also secured a victory in Nevada, where his company is based, when a judge struck down parts of the state's ghost gun ban, calling them "unconstitutionally vague".
Mr Kelly argued that ghost guns make up a small fraction of the total number of weapons recovered by law enforcement. In 2021, the ATF recovered 460,024 guns, compared to 19,273 ghost guns.
While Mr Kelly said he felt for Angellyh's family, he was personally against any government regulation of firearms based on his interpretation of the Second Amendment right to bear arms.
He dismissed statistics, such as those that show firearms are the leading cause of death for American children and teens, as missing the point.
"People need to separate in their minds violence and guns," he said.
"If we have troubled kids or we have people who feel disenfranchised in this country, which we do in spades, that's the source of this (violence)."
It's a distinction Angellyh's family does not make - Mr Yambo blamed the manufacturers for her death, and is starting a foundation to help those affected by gun violence.
"Who were these guns made for? Why were they sold in parts - in order to avoid being detected by the Department of Justice and the ATF?" he asked.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65170507

I've been talking about this, ie "ghost guns" for years on these threads... I first got the issue on my radar in the context of discussing the possibility of imposing gun manufacturer/seller liability. I then came across a documentary that introduced me to the existence of an underground market of counterfeit/unregistered gun making, ghost guns, that could not be traced, including using makeshift smelting shacks hidden in jungles, woods, abandoned buildings, etc., and 3D printed guns and everything in between. Looking back at my posts, it looks like I first became aware of the issue in 2018, but apparently the problem has grown substantially since then.

 

[Farm Boy]

Shinzo Abe was killed with a handmade gun, right?

In a certain morbid sense, given all the stuff we have access to in society, we're pretty lucky that the angry and clever usually seem to want to use a gun, rather the build or drive something else.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I've been talking about this, ie "ghost guns" for years on these threads... I first got the issue on my radar in the context of discussing the possibility of imposing gun manufacturer/seller liability. I then came across a documentary that introduced me to the existence of an underground market of counterfeit/unregistered gun making, ghost guns, that could not be traced, including using makeshift smelting shacks hidden in jungles, woods, abandoned buildings, etc., and 3D printed guns and everything in between. Looking back at my posts, it looks like I first became aware of the issue in 2018, but apparently the problem has grown substantially since then.

I remember reading an article about ghost guns in California not too long ago. I think someone said that a significant portion of guns seized by law enforcement were ghost guns. I don't remember the exact figure. I'm not sure it was as high as half, but a third, maybe? It was a lot, at any rate.

 

[danjuno]

Shinzo Abe was killed with a handmade gun, right?

In a certain morbid sense, given all the stuff we have access to in society, we're pretty lucky that the angry and clever usually seem to want to use a gun, rather the build or drive something else.

Killdozer?

 

[Farm Boy]

Kinda, yeah. But honestly I'm thinking more drones with handmade explosives.

 

[Kyriakos]

Mmm, why not just a very small drone with a lethal substance-covered needle (or a few of those) ^^ Should be less conspicuous than something large enough to carry explosives.

 

[Farm Boy]

Could skip the drone, too.

 

[Kyriakos]

Yes, but in that case you'd need to get far closer yourself
Maybe a hand-held mechanism to propel the needle would be the best of both worlds (get close, but not too close).

 

[Farm Boy]

A needle needs pretty precise and angular aiming. It takes so little shrapnel to kill a man.

 

[Kyriakos]

Not that I have tried it ( ^^ ), but probably it won't be that difficult to calculate, assuming stable conditions (not very windy) and a sharp (short) needle. At worst, one would aim for exposed parts, eg neck/head, making the needed velocity not that great.
Still would require some skill (calculation-wise), but it's also needing none of the hassle of getting a firearm/silencer.
Although getting access to some substance lethal enough and quick to kill, would be more difficult.

 

[Bamspeedy]

I remember reading an article about ghost guns in California not too long ago. I think someone said that a significant portion of guns seized by law enforcement were ghost guns. I don't remember the exact figure. I'm not sure it was as high as half, but a third, maybe? It was a lot, at any rate.

I believe, if I remember the posts from way back correctly, the large figure for guns 'seized by law enforcement' being ghost guns was an ATF agent stating "half his cases". Which an ATF agent is naturally going to get more of them, because when local cop can't trace a gun, where does it go? To the ATF. Most guns that can be traced don't need to be sent to ATF.

As for urban vs rural gun deaths, it's always been rural has more gun deaths (higher rate, not total number obviously) because of suicides. If you exclude suicides, urban is higher (unless that has changed the last few years). News articles like to point out a couple counties with high rate of deaths, but dont mention the hundreds of counties with 0 deaths for the year. Likewise there are some very safe urban areas.

Stereotypically, from my guess (havent looked up stats):
Drive-by: urban
Familicide (kill whole family): rural, suburban
Domestic: both, probably more rural from more guns
Mugging, armed robberies, carjacking resulting in murder: urban
Gang related: urban
Drug related: both

 

[zxcvbob]

Congratulations. Y'all just reinvented the blowgun.

 

[Farm Boy]

Still seems over complicated. Homemade and precise aren't the most reliable combination. My money is still on badaboom.

 

[Kyriakos]

Congratulations. Y'all just reinvented the blowgun.

Too conspicuous ^^
I was thinking of some pocket-ballista type of thing. Even toy cannons could hit with some force, and they are using a regular rubber band.
Handguns operate on extreme velocity, which is explosion-based (thus making the part where the explosion takes place be trickier to manufacture yourself, unless you want to blow your hand off). But if relatively small velocity is fine, that is taken care of.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Reasonable gun control policies should not affect farmers or hunters. But, times keep changing, many hunters now use semi-automatic rifles that some call assault rifles, like the SKS, the preferred rifle for indigenous people in Canada.

 

[Bamspeedy]

what explains a 100fold increase over a 5 year period? i doubt the laws changed much.

I think they used the terminology incorrectly. 100x just doesn't make any logical sense. 100% increase does sound much more realistic. Depending how rural we are talking about, 1 murder to 2 or 5 murders to 10 is a very concerning increase, but to go from 1 to 100 or 5 to 500?????

The common "fold" expression means "100%", and it is very often misused in expressing comparisons. If something increases by 100% (that means it doubles), it increases one-fold.