The Ugly side of Pro-Choice....

[Truronian]

Something can be a unique lifeform and still change. A yeast cell is a unique organism, even though it might eventually split to form two lifeforms. A bacteria is a unique lifeform, even though it might later go and fuse with another bacteria. Obviously, then, 'what it is' will change. But that's all just labeling. An embryo is a unique organism. Heck, even if the DNA is not compatible, the organism is still alive (until it dies).

It's all labeling, but I don't see a reason why we cannot say that 'fusing' is an important metaphysical event.

What do you mean then by unique? Different DNA?

I think the existence of identical twins and chimeras really messes up any system that labels conception as the inception of an individual. All we can really say is that at some point between the sperm and ovum getting jiggy with it and the resultant birth(s) nine months later this new individual has come into being.

 

[Communisto]

Three points:

Dom, everything you posted is teetering on the fact that you claim abortion is murder but the definition of murder and the law disagrees with you. Unless you can prove that abortion can be defined as murder all your points basically boil down to a case of "duck v. rabbit season." Of course if abortion was murder a lot of what you said would be true, and if we applied the laws we have for abortion to infanticide what you said may be valid. However this is just not the case.

You may as well just extend the line of logic to male masturbation or hell, even female menstruation. You cant just say something is wrong and call it murder and expect everyone to agree with you.

 

[Traitorfish]

I understand. But you still haven't said how letting the child grow unimpeded until it is born constitute involvement.

Do you not realise that the survival of a foetus is entirely dependent upon the mother acting in the interests of carrying the pregnancy to maturity? That her actions and lifestyle impact upon the foetus, both through positive action- e.g. eating an appropriate diet- and negative action- e.g. refraining from drinking alcohol. To suggest that the part of the mother is an uninvolved one is make the most bizarre and inaccurate assumption about the experience of pregnancy.

Those who would who pose pregnancy as some quite, passive process ticking over quietly in the background betray a profound disregard for the burden of the women who undergo pregnancy. They are, to be quite frank, misogynists.

You may as well just extend the line of logic to male masturbation...

Link to video.

 

[El_Machinae]

Oh, I'd never say that an embryo is a person. It's not a person yet, if it ever becomes one. It could become two or eight. But, it's a unique organism. Heck, a stem cell in a petri dish is a unique organism. It can move or replicate, it needs to eat and breathe.

It's all just semantics, really. But semantics are just an attempt to summarise an essence, in the platonic sense.

Yeah, you can't call an embryo a person, or you're scratching your head if it divides into twin fetuses.

 

[Truronian]

Oh, I'd never say that an embryo is a person. It's not a person yet, if it ever becomes one. It could become two or eight. But, it's a unique organism. Heck, a stem cell in a petri dish is a unique organism. It can move or replicate, it needs to eat and breathe.

It's all just semantics, really. But semantics are just an attempt to summarise an essence, in the platonic sense.

Yeah, you can't call an embryo a person, or you're scratching your head if it divides into twin fetuses.

Fair enough.

 

[NickyJ]

Do you not realise that the survival of a foetus is entirely dependent upon the mother acting in the interests of carrying the pregnancy to maturity? That her actions and lifestyle impact upon the foetus, both through positive action- e.g. eating an appropriate diet- and negative action- e.g. refraining from drinking alcohol. To suggest that the part of the mother is an uninvolved one is make the most bizarre and inaccurate assumption about the experience of pregnancy.

Those who would who pose pregnancy as some quite, passive process ticking over quietly in the background betray a profound disregard for the burden of the women who undergo pregnancy. They are, to be quite frank, misogynists.

I know all that. But aren't people supposed to go on healthy diets anyway? And studies have revealed that alcohol isn't good for you. You are supposed to eat healthy foods whether you are pregnant or not.

Also, nobody says that pregnancy isn't a burden on women.

Dom, everything you posted is teetering on the fact that you claim abortion is murder but the definition of murder and the law disagrees with you. Unless you can prove that abortion can be defined as murder all your points basically boil down to a case of "duck v. rabbit season." Of course if abortion was murder a lot of what you said would be true, and if we applied the laws we have for abortion to infanticide what you said may be valid. However this is just not the case.

You may as well just extend the line of logic to male masturbation or hell, even female menstruation. You cant just say something is wrong and call it murder and expect everyone to agree with you.

Abortion is legalized murder. Aborting a child in the womb is basically the same as killing a four year old. The only real differences are age and the four year old can try to escape.

 

[Communisto]

Abortion is legalized murder. Aborting a child in the womb is basically the same as killing a four year old.

Why? Because you say it is?

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Correct. How is letting the child grow unimpeded involvement?

Ok. Try attaching a giant heavy beanbag to yourself to 9 months and dont remove it. And then do something painful to get rid of it. Then come back.

 

[NickyJ]

Why? Because you say it is?

What is the difference? Murder is killing someone, that someone could be a child. Abortion is killing a child. There is no difference.

 

[Traitorfish]

I know all that. But aren't people supposed to go on healthy diets anyway? And studies have revealed that alcohol isn't good for you. You are supposed to eat healthy foods whether you are pregnant or not.

Firstly, that you are "supposed", whatever that means, to have a healthy diet does not mean that it is not something which impacts on the success of a pregnancy, and so does not constitute an involvement.
Secondly, you again display your ignorance; dietary needs in pregnancy are distinct from those outside of it, and dietary choices have an impact that they would not in the absence of a second organism.

Also, nobody says that pregnancy isn't a burden on women.

You are, by suggesting that a woman is something other than involved in her own pregnancy.

Ok. Try attaching a giant heavy beanbag to yourself to 9 months and dont remove it. And then do something painful to get rid of it. Then come back.

And during that nine months, you're not allowed to drink, smoke, engage in strenuous exercise, work too hard or for too long, eat unhealthy food or participate in any activity that may result in forceful impact on the stomach. You also have to make extra-sure to avoid illness, you have to stay calm because stress or anxiety could hurt the beanbag, and you should probably do your best to live away from urban areas, or anywhere else with a significant level of air pollution.

 

[mrt144]

Now wait a second.

You want to post fraudulent medical degree and licensing documents out on the web, for everyone to see, for the purpose of performing illegal abortions, fully knowing that the medical profession is one of the most regulated and monitored professions in existance....

And you think I'm playing dumb?

Ok.

Please note that I am not saying fraud is impossible. I'm not. But you were making comments as to you, yourself, personally, and what was on 'your website'. I called you on it and you have been found wanting. Carry on.

You're so obtuse. Like, you can't seriously believe I was GENUINELY ATTEMPTING TO PULL A RUSE ON YOU, can you? I'm merely saying that internet credentials aren't worth much with an example that I could trump them up if I had the will and time to do it.

 

[MobBoss]

You're so obtuse. Like, you can't seriously believe I was GENUINELY ATTEMPTING TO PULL A RUSE ON YOU, can you? I'm merely saying that internet credentials aren't worth much.

To quote you:

I have things to that effect on my website.

While I doubted the accuracy of your comment, what part of that indicates I shouldnt take it as being genuine?

As to 'will and time to trump them up'....do you have the will and time to serve in prison for such false credentials so readily offered up for all to see? 'Cause if your going to engage in fraud, I would recommend a slightly less overt method of advertisement since the profession is quite regulated and inspected by various state offices.

But to each his own. If you think it that easy, then good luck to you.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

And during that nine months, you're not allowed to drink, smoke, engage in strenuous exercise, work too hard or for too long, eat unhealthy food or participate in any activity that may result in forceful impact on the stomach. You also have to make extra-sure to avoid illness, you have to stay calm because stress or anxiety could hurt the beanbag, and you should probably do your best to live away from urban areas, or anywhere else with a significant level of air pollution.

And then you have to pay for medical bills and take care of that beanbag for 18 years afterwards.

 

[mrt144]

To quote you:



While I doubted the accuracy of your comment, what part of that indicates I shouldnt take it as being genuine?

I don't know how to even reply to this. I can't prevent you from perceiving something literally and not for the sake of argument. Trying to be facetious with you doesn't seem possible knowing that you take everyone and everything at face value.

 

[MobBoss]

I don't know how to even reply to this. I can't prevent you from perceiving something literally and not for the sake of argument.

Explain to me why I shouldnt think this comment literal?

I have things to that effect on my website.

Seems fairly straightforward to me, with an utter absence of any wink or tongue in cheek similes.

Trying to be facetious with you doesn't seem possible knowing that you take everyone and everything at face value.

Its the internet....absent anything to the contrary, why shouldnt you take things except at face value?

 

[mrt144]

Explain to me why I shouldnt think this comment literal?



Seems fairly straightforward to me, with an utter absence of any wink or tongue in cheek similes.



Its the internet....absent anything to the contrary, why shouldnt you take things except at face value?

Because it makes conversation and communication and debate and all the nuances of it nearly impossible. I might as well be talking to a robot instead of a person if the fun parts of human communication are null and void. Even now, I can't really take that you're this bereft of just one mode of thinking that lead you to the conclusion I was being serious.

I shouldn't have to signal that I made that up if it's the first time in the history of almost 9000 posts that I have a website and have doctor's credentials.

 

[NickyJ]

take care of that beanbag for 18 years afterwards.

This part is unrelated to the pregnancy other than you had the "beanbag" in pregnancy. The 18 years into the future involves both parents and exceeds the time of pregnancy that being talked about.

I am one that admits mistakes, and I will do so now: I was incorrect about involvement in pregnancy.

But I will uphold this: If you leave the fetus alone in terms of removing it, it will grow into a child.

 

[NickyJ]

Because it makes conversation and communication and debate and all the nuances of it nearly impossible. I might as well be talking to a robot instead of a person if the fun parts of human communication are null and void. Even now, I can't really take that you're this bereft of just one mode of thinking that lead you to the conclusion I was being serious.

I shouldn't have to signal that I made that up if it's the first time in the history of almost 9000 posts that I have a website and have doctor's credentials.

Ever heard of the saying "Sarcasm doesn't work well on the internet"?

 

[MobBoss]

I shouldn't have to signal that I made that up if it's the first time in the history of almost 9000 posts that I have a website and have doctor's credentials.

Please allow me to correct you. If I made a post, with no sarcasm tags at all much like you did, and said 'I'm gay' or some other comment not really indicative of all the other posts I have ever made here, I gurantee you more than a few people would take that post as fact.

So, like I said, its the net. For all I know, even with 9000 posts otherwise, you may have been very well telling the truth, given the fact that there were utterly no sarcasm tags to the contrary to indicate otherwise by you. The actual fun part of human communication is the understanding of peoples comments one to another....not the ill-attempted ill-described occasional sarcastic comment.

and for the record: I'm not gay. <----sarcasm tag alert.

 

[JollyRoger]

Ever heard of the saying "Sarcasm doesn't work well on the internet"?

It works perfectly well for me.