The Welsh Blind-spot

[Trafalgar]

As an Englishman, I consider Wales to be famous for: Singing, Mining, Rugby and the Longbow.

They are a separate country and have a proud tradition of....Welshness!

You just need better PR.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Although English is widely spoken in Wales, it hasn't had the success of replacing the native language of ales in entirety. You cannot say this about ANY other Celtic nation. Irish Gaelic has been almost wholly destroyed, Cornish is extinct but trying to make a revival. Scottish Alba is literally on the rocks of the highlands and Brittany, well I'm sure you know yourself.

Probably because the welsh made far less trouble, and had a generally better deal than the irish? And Alba was mainly torn up by the Scots speaking lowlanders first. And you can't blame Brittany on the English (and complaining of loosing welsh identity to 'british', hey it could be worse - you could be a Briton in France).

@6underground: I think Izmunuti's point is that the only solely 'English' history thats tought is the negatively portrayed anglo-saxon invasion. AFter that its British (anglo-norman-celtic-x), and since england occupies five times the size and pop of wales for most of that time, most of the facts occur in england. But there's loads of welsh stuff tought - the Tudors were welsh for example, the importance of welsh longbowmen in the hundred years war, the law in wales acts, the importance of welsh regions during industrialization etc. Heck I even remember being told about Owain Glyndwr (though mainly in a 'those darstardly french' context ).

@lovett: Actually Lithuania is about equal to Wales, Georgia is 1.3 Wales, Azerbajan about 2.2, Belarus 3 and a bit Waleses. Hardly dwarfing .

 

[LAnkou]

well, about breton in Brittany, from 1794 until 1975, Breton was banished in school and there was a war between the head of State and the breton language.

For example: the minister of education declared in 1925 that "for linguistic unity in France, Breton language must disappear."

Please note that Breton is the only celtic language that is not an official language.

 

[Verbose]

@lovett: Actually Lithuania is about equal to Wales, Georgia is 1.3 Wales, Azerbajan about 2.2, Belarus 3 and a bit Waleses. Hardly dwarfing .

No they're not, you have a point.

But Russia, and Imperial and Soviet history, is to these places what England, and British history, is to Wales.

 

[6underground]

Probably because the welsh made far less trouble, and had a generally better deal than the irish? And Alba was mainly torn up by the Scots speaking lowlanders first. And you can't blame Brittany on the English (and complaining of loosing welsh identity to 'british', hey it could be worse - you could be a Briton in France).

The Welsh generally integrated with England far better than the Scots or the Irish, that's not to say there wasn't any resistance, I mean the last Welsh rebellion occurred 100's of years after Wales and England were joined at the hip. The Welsh, If i may be so bold have never really been known for their violence or terrorism (not to say that these haven't happened, but generally speaking we've been rather quiet). Our proximity and trade links to central and southern England (especially) is a big factor in integration too.

Welsh Identity hasn't really lessened to "British" Culture, because they are truly different things (I am Welsh and British) however, Welsh identity has been affected by British (primarily English) migration into Wales, certain legislation and its role as a conquered nation.

think Izmunuti's point is that the only solely 'English' history thats tought is the negatively portrayed anglo-saxon invasion. AFter that its British (anglo-norman-celtic-x), and since england occupies five times the size and pop of wales for most of that time, most of the facts occur in england. But there's loads of welsh stuff tought - the Tudors were welsh for example, the importance of welsh longbowmen in the hundred years war, the law in wales acts, the importance of welsh regions during industrialization etc. Heck I even remember being told about Owain Glyndwr (though mainly in a 'those darstardly french' context

Good points, but my principal point is that, just like the tudors and dare I say Owain Glyndwr, what Welsh history is taught is events that only concern England, acts of incorporation or anglo-centric matters that reinforce "Britishness", so long as it's England first.

For instance, I'm willing to bet that Owain Glyndwr's role in your history class, centred entirely around his role with the French and him being a threat to England its conquered realms. Same with the Tudors being part of the English lineage and England's burgeoning empire. Do you see what I mean? The only thing mentioned about Wales and the Welsh in British history is it's roles in appeasing or otherwise complying with England's agenda (be that war or diplomacy), nothing else is taught, not because there's nothing there (quite the contrary), but as I believe the indoctrination of the Welsh into "Britishness" via ignorance of their own history, rather than through choice and pride to be called "British".

Please note that Breton is the only celtic language that is not an official language.

You are incorrect, Welsh is not an official language of Wales, either.

 

[Disenfrancised]

For instance, I'm willing to bet that Owain Glyndwr's role in your history class, centred entirely around his role with the French and him being a threat to England its conquered realms.

Thats what I said . But remember at this point in time the anglo-saxons were also under the imported French-speaking nobilities thumb, so the english weren't in charge as such.

You are incorrect, Welsh is not an official language of Wales, either.

The Welsh Language act of 1993 disagrees with you on that.

 

[6underground]

Thats what I said, But remember at this point in time the anglo-saxons were also under the imported French-speaking nobilities thumb, so the english weren't in charge as such.

Indeed, but even after and currently "British History" is arguably anglo-centric. Yes, proportionally the size and population of England (let alone political-diplomatic weight) will and does account for much of British history. However, just because its size and density as a U.K member state is prominent does not/shouldn't advocate that history needs/must revolve around it.

The Welsh Language act of 1993 disagrees with you on that.

To clarify, the Welsh language act propagates that Welsh is a "language of government" in Wales, but it doesn't have official language status on a national level. It is "de facto". The Language Act recognised the importance of language principally through education and laid the foundations to help improve speakers through-out Wales.

So in effect, the Welsh language act doesn't disagree with my statement abut official language status, since the act never declared Wales in having Welsh as an official language of Wales. Rather, a tip of the hat by the British government who finally acknowledged its presence in the U.K, and those who resisted becoming monoglot English speakers.

In essence, the act basically says:

If you go to a court in Wales and you speak welsh, you are allowed representation in Welsh. Whereas, you could not before hand.

 

[Figaro]

well, about breton in Brittany, from 1794 until 1975, Breton was banished in school and there was a war between the head of State and the breton language.

For example: the minister of education declared in 1925 that "for linguistic unity in France, Breton language must disappear."

Please note that Breton is the only celtic language that is not an official language.

Indeed, I've heard that quotation before; I'm well aware that the Bretons (not to mention the Cornish) are even worse off than we are, and it's a mighty shame.

As far as I see it, English = an amalgamation of Anglo-Saxon & French influences. The original Anglo-Saxon invaders can no more be considered English than the original Celts can be considered Welsh - the Welsh are descendents of the Britons who themselves were *massively* influenced (both linguistically and culturally) by the Romans. I prefer to avoid the history and just look at what constitutes the nations today - otherwise I'd be campaigning for the English to all go back to Germany and give us the whole island !

The fact is, in modern Great Britain there is a clear distinction between "English" and "Welsh", and its always seemed to me that to claim there is such a thing as "Britishness" on an equal level with those is ridiuclous. I am Welsh, British, European and a Citizen of the World, but they're all distinctions on entirely different levels. I just don't understand people who claim to be "British without being English" but in fact know bugger all about Welsh/Scottish etc. cultures - that's just English. You have the geographical distinction of coming from the British isles, but that's all it is, geographical.

 

[6underground]

I am Welsh, British, European and a Citizen of the World, but they're all distinctions on entirely different levels. I just don't understand people who claim to be "British without being English" but in fact know bugger all about Welsh/Scottish etc. cultures - that's just English. You have the geographical distinction of coming from the British isles, but that's all it is, geographical.

I completely agree with you 100% on that. I deem myself "British" in the context of geographical location (largely solely). I'm not (or at least don't feel) "British" in a cultural sense because :

A: I know very little/relate very little to Northern Ireland.
B: Don't feel at all connected to English culture (but do respect parts of it).
C: Feel very little in the way of any meaningful connection to Scotland, other than it being another Celtic nation and a member of the U.K.
D: Don't feel as though Wales has any real significant or respected representation in the U.K.

I won't even get into my feelings about the Union Jack, safe to say I don't fly it or accept it, as harsh as it sounds. I know the history concerning it and why Wales was "left out of it" (part of England). It just seems to me that the powers that be, wish to maintain the status quo that principalities and conquered dominions have any real significance or prestige in the world, and that the lowly uneducated Welsh peasants do not know the principles, ideologies or beliefs of representation, democracy, equality or fairness.

I do respect the potential the Union Jack could have and the potential the U.K could have, if only interests weren't so vested in one member state as a consequence of battles centuries ago.

Ah well.

 

[LAnkou]

*beware: free english bashing coming*
*Please take it as i gave it: as a joke*

The role of England in History: The greatest messmakers of all time!!!

First, Anglosaxons started to raid the celts. As soon as they appear, they mess with some very nice people (of course, since they are celts!!!)
The celts people were very nice and looked at the english like young adults rebelling, and as a lot of parents do, they let them have some privacy (what is no mainly england).
But these cowards english just after being autonomous, got invaded by vikings and are unable to stop them!!! If the celts didn't let the english settled, there would have been no vikings in Europe. But no. Englishmen let the vikings have some land on british island and let them raid Europe!!! grrr!!!

But that's not sufficient to mess with Continental Europe. They have to **** France by letting them invaded by William the conqueror, something that put trouble in France!!!

however, French king Philippe Auguste get back all land from english land!!!
The welsh, a very nice group of celtic people accept in 1284 to pretend to be annexed by england. Poor englishmen, without welsh people nice behaviour, they would have been destroyed.

Unfortunately, the english king thought he was so good at wars he declared against France to start the 100 years war. Without welsh longbowmen, it would have been the 100 hour war, but there was welsh people in the army.

It's the fifth time england mess with other people!!! Can't they stay nice and peacefull!!!

However, Joan of Arc, a celtic girl living in non celtic land (of course she was celtic, she was a saint!!! almost all saint are celtics!!! that's obvious!!!) stop this mess and help the king of France to be crown in Reims. And when the welsh people decide that the shortest joke are the best and that 100 year is really to long for a good joke, England lost the war and a little after that, welsh people decide that they should lead england and the Tudor get on the throne.

For 140 years, england don't mess with other countries!!! because there was celtic people at their head!! and it correspond to the english first golden age!!!
In 1536, welsh people decide that they officially have to take care of england, that's why there's the Union Act.

However, english blood is more and more present in the body of the head of state, and messing with other people starts again in 1553, slowly, with the elimination of some honnest portuguese merchant along nigeria coast. Just ot get monopolis of slave trade!!!

They start to invade land that really didn't ask that in the new world (francis drake, etc...) and to justify racial trading, they put in school some pseudo-scientific theory about races.

In 1707, scots, very nice celtic people, sees that england put a great mess in the world and decide that they should influence england by joining them. But English people are really evil-minded people and even the scot can't prevent the english to mess with americans.

I don't really have to explain what happend in 1775....

As they are really dumb, they decide to attack France fist republic in 1793 just as a revenge!!!
To consolate the english, some irish people decide to help them (really needs it) in 1801.

It doesn't prevent evil english to invade a lot of countries in Africa, oceania, and asia.

And finally, they stole the olympics to Paris in 2012!!!!