Theory of Evolution.

You do recognize that if you jump off a building the theory of gravity has absolutely nothing to do with what is about to happen, right?
No, I don't recognize that at all.

I know that on Earth at sea level I will fall at the rate of 9.8m/sec/sec. That the higher the building the more force that I will hit the ground. If I know the height of that building I can even compute the force that I will strike the ground and estimate if I will likely be unharmed, injured, or even killed. I also know that if a watermelon is dropped at the same height at the same time that we will hit the ground simultaneously. I know all of this without even trying it.

I also know from evolution and the fossil record that man evolved from simpler life forms over the course of millions of years. That all creatures weren't created at the very same instant as some would have you believe. I even know we were descended from apes. That there were other more primitive species of man prior to Homo sapiens. That we all come from the same common ancestors who lived in Kenya.
 
No, I don't recognize that at all.

I know that on Earth at sea level I will fall at the rate of 9.8m/sec/sec. That the higher the building the more force that I will hit the ground. If I know the height of that building I can even compute the force that I will strike the ground and estimate if I will likely be unharmed, injured, or even killed. I also know that if a watermelon is dropped at the same height at the same time that we will hit the ground simultaneously. I know all of this without even trying it.

I also know from evolution and the fossil record that man evolved from simpler life forms over the course of millions of years. That all creatures weren't created at the very same instant as some would have you believe. I even know we were descended from apes. That there were other more primitive species of man prior to Homo sapiens. That we all come from the same common ancestors who lived in Kenya.

What do you think happened to people who jumped off buildings before Isaac Newton was born?
 
The acceleration during a free-fall is what is observable, not a 'gravity'. The latter is inferred, which is why it is called a theory. For all we know those forces may not be some pull from a core of the earth in the theorised manner. That objects will fall is observed, thus the various notions of dynamic states. But ultimately this is just a model and not 'real', for many reasons (the more 'deep' of which are that this is just our human sense of movements and falls).

But 'evolution' is even more moved away from a basis, cause it lacks the empirical observation in experiment. And it does seem to have political elements as well, which is why it became a troll-fest in the first place..

And while all our 'science' is ultimately from a human point of view, this does not mean that the degree of validity in inferring stuff is the same in different orders.
 
But what happened to them happened just the same. Theory or lack of theory makes no difference.
So what is your point? That it is senseless to try to understand how the things really work because people still died back then? That intelligent design is an acceptable substitute for evolution? That the phlogiston theory is just as acceptable as understanding the chemistry behind combustion and oxidation?

For all we know those forces may not be some pull from a core of the earth in the theorised manner. That objects will fall is observed, thus the various notions of dynamic states. But ultimately this is just a model and not 'real', for many reasons (the more 'deep' of which are that this is just our human sense of movements and falls).
Then how would you explain that the force decreases the higher up you go? That if you go up high enough that you become weightless? That you no longer fall at all? That on the surface of the moon that force is approximately 1/6th of what it is on Earth?

But 'evolution' is even more moved away from a basis, cause it lacks the empirical observation in experiment. And it does seem to have political elements as well, which is why it became a troll-fest in the first place.
Are you claiming there isn't sufficient evidence to infer that evolution is just as true as gravity? That while these "theories" might undergo some minor tweaking that they aren't basically sound?

What political elements are you referring to? There is no politics in science - just in the human reaction to it which typically changes dramatically once a new controversial theory is finally accepted.

There shouldn't be any "troll-fest" with science. It is like arguing over facts. While it is somewhat understandable how scientists who were responsible for first discovering new theories don't like to see them successfully challenged, it is extremely rare for them to not finally agree with the changes.
 
^Gravity is still a model. There may be indeed for a human-like lifeform some sort of field dragging stuff towards a planetary center, for some reason (so this would be happening due to being relatively near or breaking away from that field, as shuttles do in some degree and so now don't fall but stay in orbit).
Then again maybe the model is not really close to reality even within the bounds of 3d-lifeforms. Eg (not saying this has to be more likely, just giving an example) maybe spatial parameters of other kind cause the 'gravity' force, and they seem to coincide with leaving some point of distance to that planetary core. Eg if a mouse rat munches on a bit of a protrusion on the wall of the mouse-lab-maze for three times, the scientist may have set the law that he now must open a door somewhere. The mouse, assuming it notices that and links the two events, may be of the 'view' that the door opened cause some cosmic law is that a door opens if the mouse munches there. Reality is that law was set arbitrarily, and is not tied to the maze itself, or the mouse.

Another issue, that i briefly alluded to, is that all such models are about a 3d environment we observe through our means. In 'reality' maybe there is no 'movement' or 'mass' or any such event or trait in the first place, and those are just formed due to our particular sensory organs, out of objects that are not 'really' having such qualities at all. (usually this is termed idealism, although i do not like the term).
 
Well, anything is conceivably possible. And many physicists certainly don't like that there still isn't a unified field theory which explains the interactions of all four forms of the fundamental forces. But the basics are certainly well known and accepted. We can be fairly confident that tomorrow objects will still fall at 9.8m/sec/sec at sea level. That elements will still exist.

Regarding this particular topic, that some completely different theory will not entirely supplant evolution and show that the creationists were right all along. That geology was indeed some dark joke perpetuated on us as a test by a supreme being.
 
But 'evolution' is even more moved away from a basis, cause it lacks the empirical observation in experiment. And it does seem to have political elements as well, which is why it became a troll-fest in the first place..

And while all our 'science' is ultimately from a human point of view, this does not mean that the degree of validity in inferring stuff is the same in different orders.
Do we still use the same antibiotics now that we did many years ago? Of course not. That's because we're combating ever-more resistant bacteria that is a prime example of natural selection: that which is most successful at adaptation is what survives. This is why a doctor who prescribes a course of antibiotics tells the patient to take ALL of it, no matter how you feel. You want to kill the strong bacteria along with the weak bacteria, or you're going to get sick again.

This is observable evolution, and it happens in the lab.

While it is somewhat understandable how scientists who were responsible for first discovering new theories don't like to see them successfully challenged, it is extremely rare for them to not finally agree with the changes.
Any scientist worth the designation would be glad to have more accurate knowledge replace what is proven to be wrong. Would their egos take a hit? In some cases, of course it would. But a scientist who is genuinely after finding out what is true/most accurate is able to set ego aside.
 
^Gravity is still a model. There may be indeed for a human-like lifeform some sort of field dragging stuff towards a planetary center, for some reason (so this would be happening due to being relatively near or breaking away from that field, as shuttles do in some degree and so now don't fall but stay in orbit).
Then again maybe the model is not really close to reality even within the bounds of 3d-lifeforms. Eg (not saying this has to be more likely, just giving an example) maybe spatial parameters of other kind cause the 'gravity' force, and they seem to coincide with leaving some point of distance to that planetary core. Eg if a mouse rat munches on a bit of a protrusion on the wall of the mouse-lab-maze for three times, the scientist may have set the law that he now must open a door somewhere. The mouse, assuming it notices that and links the two events, may be of the 'view' that the door opened cause some cosmic law is that a door opens if the mouse munches there. Reality is that law was set arbitrarily, and is not tied to the maze itself, or the mouse.

Another issue, that i briefly alluded to, is that all such models are about a 3d environment we observe through our means. In 'reality' maybe there is no 'movement' or 'mass' or any such event or trait in the first place, and those are just formed due to our particular sensory organs, out of objects that are not 'really' having such qualities at all. (usually this is termed idealism, although i do not like the term).

What I think you're trying to get across (I'll admit I find your post quite difficult to understand as a piece of English, let alone as philosophy) is that there's no way for us to know that the scientific method gives a picture of the world as it really is, as opposed to a picture which explains human observations. That's true, and it's entirely the point. The mouse problem is known as cargo-cult science - where people understand what is happening but not the processes behind it, and end up attributing significance to the wrong things. That does happen regularly, and the best way to avoid it is to make more rigorous experiments - that is, to control variables such that only one part of the input changes from instance to instance, so any change in the output must be attributed to that - as well as being upfront to the extent that errors, whether in the experiment itself, the people doing it, or simply luck, can affect results. Another way would be to reduce the incentives on scientists to fudge their results (for example, for journals to be just as willing to publish 'boring' data as 'exciting' data), and to be cautious about the people commissioning and publicising experiments. If a drug company is allowed to commission a hundred trials and throw away ninety-nine, that makes the one that ends up being published rather suspect.

There's a good essay that I picked up some years ago by Isaac Asimov called 'The Relativity of Wrong', which sets out the case for ever-improving models of the universe. Although we admit that the model in use to describe any interesting phenomenon in twenty years is unlikely to be identical to the one in use today, we equally acknowledge that it's likely to be similar in essence, and that the model in use to describe (say) the motion of the planets in five hundred years is going to be much closer to the one in use today than the model used five centuries ago.
 
Any scientist worth the designation would be glad to have more accurate knowledge replace what is proven to be wrong. Would their egos take a hit? In some cases, of course it would. But a scientist who is genuinely after finding out what is true/most accurate is able to set ego aside.
I am referring to the petty fighting which occasionally occurs when a scientist discovers his pet theory is under challenge. There is just so much research money and prestige to go around. That is where the politics of science enters into the process.

What happens outside of science is an entirely different matter that is usually based on either sheer willful or unwilling ignorance of the underlying science itself. That is where the propagandizing usually occurs, and it really has nothing at all to do with science other than to possibly deny funding for a badly needed program like stem cell research.
 
So what is your point?

My point is exactly what I said. Moving on.

Like the theory of gravity, the theory of evolution is irrelevant. The hypothetical DNA molecules will continue to mutate, either randomly, or as directed by "the hands of gods" or through the intervention of their internal, or possibly external, consciousness. How much of that process you, or anyone else claims to understand will have no effect on it whatsoever.

The only constant is human arrogance.
 
You don't seem to care much at all for science and scientists.
 
My point is exactly what I said. Moving on.

Like the theory of gravity, the theory of evolution is irrelevant. The hypothetical DNA molecules will continue to mutate, either randomly, or as directed by "the hands of gods" or through the intervention of their internal, or possibly external, consciousness. How much of that process you, or anyone else claims to understand will have no effect on it whatsoever.

The only constant is human arrogance.

I suppose there's something to be said for that, but what matters is what we can do with or about the processes that we observe. Our knowing about evolution doesn't affect whether it happens, but does affect whether we can take advantage of it to breed better livestock or avoid its ill effects by stopping bacteria becoming resistant to drugs. An even better example might be global warming, where understanding the mechanism at work is our only chance of stopping that mechanism from causing serious trouble.
 
You don't care much at all for science and scientists. Do you?

LOL...now THERE is a unsupportable leap of theory.

Just because I don't abjectly worship them as the emblems of the great mysteries as my ancestors did their shamans and their ancestors did the moon doesn't mean that I "don't care for them." The biggest difference between me and most people is that I accept their limitations.
 
I suppose there's something to be said for that, but what matters is what we can do with or about the processes that we observe. Our knowing about evolution doesn't affect whether it happens, but does affect whether we can take advantage of it to breed better livestock or avoid its ill effects by stopping bacteria becoming resistant to drugs. An even better example might be global warming, where understanding the mechanism at work is our only chance of stopping that mechanism from causing serious trouble.

Notice that in all three of your examples the need to understand the mechanism is based on serious trouble that was set in motion in the first place by taking advantage of our understanding of the mechanisms?
 
What I think you're trying to get across (I'll admit I find your post quite difficult to understand as a piece of English, let alone as philosophy) is that there's no way for us to know that the scientific method gives a picture of the world as it really is, as opposed to a picture which explains human observations. That's true, and it's entirely the point. The mouse problem is known as cargo-cult science - where people understand what is happening but not the processes behind it, and end up attributing significance to the wrong things. That does happen regularly, and the best way to avoid it is to make more rigorous experiments - that is, to control variables such that only one part of the input changes from instance to instance, so any change in the output must be attributed to that - as well as being upfront to the extent that errors, whether in the experiment itself, the people doing it, or simply luck, can affect results. Another way would be to reduce the incentives on scientists to fudge their results (for example, for journals to be just as willing to publish 'boring' data as 'exciting' data), and to be cautious about the people commissioning and publicising experiments. If a drug company is allowed to commission a hundred trials and throw away ninety-nine, that makes the one that ends up being published rather suspect.

There's a good essay that I picked up some years ago by Isaac Asimov called 'The Relativity of Wrong', which sets out the case for ever-improving models of the universe. Although we admit that the model in use to describe any interesting phenomenon in twenty years is unlikely to be identical to the one in use today, we equally acknowledge that it's likely to be similar in essence, and that the model in use to describe (say) the motion of the planets in five hundred years is going to be much closer to the one in use today than the model used five centuries ago.

If i had to bet then intuitively i would rather expect that if any actual breakthrough does happen in the models, that will have to come through very major cancellation of a large number of notions which apparently -or afaik- are deemed as fundamental currently.
Such as any kind of sense-picked event (movement, change of any kind, even effect of time in otherwise stable objects) re-examined as not just inconclusive but likely inherently indistinct from a false alarm as to causes or even event traits in the first place.

It has to do with scope. If one just wants to eat, cause he is hungry, then it makes sense to just eat something he knows is edible, etc etc. If one just wants to re-arrange the furniture he is not having to theorise on molecular levels of those chairs. If one wants to leave a room he can open the door.
But that is not the same as one wanting to examine what having such a spectrum of events, and sensed traits means in first place, and if any notion we have can ever be more than a formation in our particular, human, 3d-based, sensory-organ formed (in more than a few ways) points of view.
We may note what seems true for us, or is set as true in a human model with set rules/axioms. That has likely nothing at all to do with what is 'real', and in such a case we cannot even know anything 'real' in that manner.
 
Another issue, that i briefly alluded to, is that all such models are about a 3d environment we observe through our means. In 'reality' maybe there is no 'movement' or 'mass' or any such event or trait in the first place, and those are just formed due to our particular sensory organs, out of objects that are not 'really' having such qualities at all. (usually this is termed idealism, although i do not like the term).

That's not idealism. That's Kantianism. Idealism is the denial that there are any objects outside the mind at all.
 
Spoiler :
Regardless, they're not right - and although it's usually wise to set more in store by reliable sources, that shouldn't stop us from discussing ideas that come from unreliable ones, or simply out of somebody's head - there's no need to appeal to a better textbook to show that there is evidence of that sort. It's actually quite possible to watch evolution happening on a human timescale if you look at creatures with short lifespans. One famous and (I think) interesting example is the peppered moth. Originally mostly white in colour, people started finding black peppered moths around 1810 - when the soot produced by burning coal was turning many trees black - and the population as a whole became darker over the next few decades, with black moths eventually becoming the largest group. The changes in tree colours gave a competitive advantage to black moths, which now had better camouflage, and the population changed as a result.

A less pleasant example is the reason why you're told to carry through a course of antibiotics even if you feel better before finishing it - if you don't, some bacteria with slightly less susceptibility may survive, though their total numbers will be too small to make you feel ill. However, these will then breed, with the result that you end up being made sick by a population that is much better at surviving antibiotics than normal, and which may prove totally impossible to reduce with antibiotics enough that it can't recover its numbers. Another is the way in which plant and animal breeders control incentives (by controlling which animals are allowed to mate, which plants are allowed to cross-pollinate, and so on) in order to produce the characteristics that they want - selective breeding, which is the reason that chickens and bulldogs don't look like any sensible animal that you might find in the wild, wouldn't exist if the principle of natural selection wasn't sound enough to make a living betting on it.

In both cases you have observations - in the former case, that trees changed colour, and the moths also changed colour within a few decades, and in the latter that a patient can take most of a course of antibiotics, start feeling better, stop taking the drugs, and soon become sick again but find the antibiotics unhelpful. Both are explained by the suggested rule that sometimes, when an organism reproduces, an error or mutation is inserted into its DNA, and that organisms which find themselves with mutations that give them an advantage in their environments have more children and so pass that mutation on, eventually displacing those who do not have that mutation. One could imagine evidence - for example, a species of black moths, living in black trees, that became white over a few generations although the trees stayed black - that might challenge this rule, and invite us to modify it (as Richard Dawkins spends most of his actually biological books trying to do) or get rid of it altogether.

To give a similar example going back to gravity, the current rule that we work on - that objects with mass exert a force on other objects with mass, which attracts the two together - isn't a million miles away, in everyday application, from Aristotle's rule that 'everything tries to get back to its natural place'. It's a question of being less wrong, or more accurately being able to predict the outcome of a future experiment with greater accuracy. For example, Aristotle would have struggled to explain how a rocket can be attracted to the Earth until it enters outer space, where it seems to be attracted (in meaningful terms) by nothing at all, until it nears the moon and becomes attracted by that. However, if you want to explain why everyday objects on Earth act as they do, you won't go far wrong if you say 'the arrow drops because it wants to reach the ground' rather than 'the arrow drops because the Earth exerts a force on it'.

I knew about the peppered moths and antibiotics. I haven't said anything about peppered moths, but I knew about how the overuse of antibiotics for everything and not just for their intended purpose helped to bring about the modern resistant diseases. When I said about that one it was ignored.

There are a couple of others that I've read about that show adaptions on a recent scale, one was how more elephants are either having shorter tusks or no tusks at all, as the ones that do have tusks are hunted by poachers, another is how fish are becoming smaller because of fisherman keeping the larger fish while throwing the smaller fish back. Both of those were dismissed.

Dog breeding was one that although it is artificial selection it does show that at least the mechanism does exist, but that was dismissed simply because it was done by man.

I've even mentioned how the chili plant can affect mammals and not birds as the chemical capsaicin is an adaption to prevent mammals from eating the chili plant because mammals chew and crush the seeds, while birds will swallow the chili peppers whole, not breaking the seeds and passing through the birds. They now use that one as evidence of creation. Maybe I should just give up.
 
Notice that in all three of your examples the need to understand the mechanism is based on serious trouble that was set in motion in the first place by taking advantage of our understanding of the mechanisms?

I'm not sure I follow. If you're saying that taking advantage of imperfect models often leads to problems, I don't think anyone would disagree - except that I don't think that even perfect models avoid the chance of things going badly wrong. The disaster at Fukushima, for example, didn't happen because nobody knew that tsunamis and earthquakes could cause reactors to fail catastrophically, but because people decided it wasn't worth the cost of protecting them against those things. However, I think as a net effect we certainly gain much more from taking advantage of science than we lose from it. If we're going to chalk up climate change, nuclear meltdowns and BSE as 'bad' consequences of 'trying to understand the world', we have to match them against the fact that doing just that feeds people and keeps them away from lead pipes, asbestos and smallpox.

If i had to bet then intuitively i would rather expect that if any actual breakthrough does happen in the models, that will have to come through very major cancellation of a large number of notions which apparently -or afaik- are deemed as fundamental currently.

Indeed, but the point - Asimov's point - is that such cancellations are not going to happen, because the models have been tuned to a point that their basic assumptions are sound, even if the details can be made better.

Such as any kind of sense-picked event (movement, change of any kind, even effect of time in otherwise stable objects) re-examined as not just inconclusive but likely inherently indistinct from a false alarm as to causes or even event traits in the first place.

I'm afraid I don't know what that means.

It has to do with scope. If one just wants to eat, cause he is hungry, then it makes sense to just eat something he knows is edible, etc etc. If one just wants to re-arrange the furniture he is not having to theorise on molecular levels of those chairs. If one wants to leave a room he can open the door.

Indeed. One of the general trends in science over the years has been an increasing preoccupation with things on the boundaries of or outside human experience - in Classical times, for example, most 'physics' concerned itself with things that an ordinary person might observe on a daily basis, and human beings observed the full results of experiments even well into the Early Modern period. Galileo's telescopes were the first time that people were asked to trust an instrument to give them measurements, but now it's almost inconceivable to have a major scientific experiment that doesn't do exactly that. This trend makes it even more likely that the fundamentals of science are unlikely to change - if the model works absolutely perfectly for anything larger than a molecule, it's unlikely to be found in need of total overhaul.

But that is not the same as one wanting to examine what having such a spectrum of events, and sensed traits means in first place, and if any notion we have can ever be more than a formation in our particular, human, 3d-based, sensory-organ formed (in more than a few ways) points of view.
We may note what seems true for us, or is set as true in a human model with set rules/axioms. That has likely nothing at all to do with what is 'real', and in such a case we cannot even know anything 'real' in that manner.

As I tried to explain earlier, that's a question for philosophers, but emphatically (and deliberately) not one for scientists. In a way, that should make philosophers glad - it means they're likely to stay employed.

I knew about the peppered moths and antibiotics. I haven't said anything about peppered moths, but I knew about how the overuse of antibiotics for everything and not just for their intended purpose helped to bring about the modern resistant diseases. When I said about that one it was ignored.

There are a couple of others that I've read about that show adaptions on a recent scale, one was how more elephants are either having shorter tusks or no tusks at all, as the ones that do have tusks are hunted by poachers, another is how fish are becoming smaller because of fisherman keeping the larger fish while throwing the smaller fish back. Both of those were dismissed.

Dog breeding was one that although it is artificial selection it does show that at least the mechanism does exist, but that was dismissed simply because it was done by man.

I've even mentioned how the chili plant can affect mammals and not birds as the chemical capsaicin is an adaptation to prevent mammals from eating the chili plant because mammals chew and crush the seeds, while birds will swallow the chili peppers whole, not breaking the seeds and passing through the birds. They now use that one as evidence of creation. Maybe I should just give up.

I think you've come to the right conclusion. Conversations don't work when one person is being dismissed out of hand - they're only interesting, even on CFC, when both parties are willing to learn. These people seem to be refusing to play ball with reasonable argument, which makes convincing them a waste of energy.
 
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