Things you *don't* want to see in Civ7 and its expansions

I am going to regret this, but to use Hegelian notions :p Civ6 has often been direct antithesis to the thesis (mechanics) of Civ5 and I suspect Civ7 may be synthesis, I mean taking the middle ground/best solutions of both games.

Civ5 was too biased towards tall, Civ6 was too biased towards wide, Civ7 shall try making both viable.

Civ5 had culture/gov system which offered choices and consequences but no flexibility, Civ6 had exactly opposite problems and advantages, Civ7 will try to have culture/gov combining flexibility and consequential choices.

Civ5 espionage was not very interactive but simple to use and impactful, civ6 espionage can be engaging but is micro heavy and often not worth it.

Civ5 had not very engaging city building but as a benefit it had far less problems with tedious micromanagement, Civ6 has great city mechanics buy they become boring tedium by the late game, Civ7 shall try... You get the idea.

Then we have some systems which became stale as they were almost identical in both games - warfare, religion, basic pop/yield system, I'd argue diplomacy at its core despite all shiny toys of civ6 - here we're going to see revolutions.
I KNEW this forum was a hive of communists!

Just kidding, but yes Civ 6 felt very experimental.

I hope Civ 7 reels back in a lot from Civ 4.
 
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Very questionable.
Rome and Chinese empires clearly reached borders from which they didn't expand much for centuries, because the cost was higher than the possible gains. In case of Rome it was powerful Persia and super poor non-Celtic (La Tene) lands left to conquer which were much much poorer than Celtic and Balkans lands they conquered. Even Britain was already negative financial drain for the Empire, and it was much more advanced that the forest lands of non-Celtic Germania, or Berber Morocco etc where the costs to subjugate them simply didn't justify gains.

When you look at the history of empires you don't really see them expanding ad infinitum. China never bothered to conquer rich Korea, Thailand or Japan. Indian empires never went outside the subcontinent - hell, almost all of them didn't even display will to conquer the entirety of India. Poland-Lithuania wilfully chose not to get engaged in HRE politics and not to annex Prussia. African states were fine governing the same area for centuries. If your thesis had been correct, then the political history of the world would look like a total chaos, with every player trying to attack some other players all the time, stopping only to regroup and wait for other players' moment of weakness, which is simply not what we see - we see areas of political chaos, but also areas of roughly the same borders remaining in place for hundreds of years.

I think part of the problem is looking at historical states from the perspective of modern player, who governs the entirety of the state and plays to "win". But in real life people may simply not desire war. Elites may simply not want to risk it, common folk tend to be enjoy peace, there may be no cultural desire to expand, conquest may be not economically viable, or politically desirable. The priority for real life agents is to maintain their current status, with loss aversion and risk aversion, and very often the agents care more about maintaining power within the institution rather than working for the abstract "good of the whole". Historical states are not "rational agents" or hive minds playing a game of maximizing power, they consist of people who may or may not see the value in expansion of the state in which they live.

When I am popular ruler of a kingdom which is at peace, and I don't have very ambitious personality, then why should I risk everything by expanding? I'm just happy I can govern my swarms of unruly vassals for five minutes with minimum drama. Conquest could even empower them and disturb equilibrium. On the other hand, vassals may also oppose expansion, becoming nervous of monarch's power rising too much. Burghers don't want war, they want the stability of trade. Peasants usually don't want war either. The notion of nation doesn't exist and there is no game to win and I prefer to live happily and safely.

The nature of 4X games is, they are well games where you are not afraid of anything except final victory or defeat, so expansion there becomes the matter of pure calculation. But I think decently realistic 4X game should simulate some costs and challenges of expansion simular to the real ones (overextension, instability, too high costs too few gains, foreign oppositiion).
That's an unfortunately large amount of text to make a point that seems rather unnecessary.

Leyrann specifically said "settling empty lands", and you seem to have responded as if he said conquest should have no downsides at all.

Unless I'm reading something wrong...

:(
 
That's an unfortunately large amount of text to make a point that seems rather unnecessary.

Leyrann specifically said "settling empty lands", and you seem to have responded as if he said conquest should have no downsides at all.

Unless I'm reading something wrong...

:(
Huh? You seem to have read it entirely wrong. His post was about why settling empty lands (without conquest) should realistically be challenging and have downsides.
 
The majority of those examples are regarding conquest (e.g. Persia, Korea), or notably poor areas.

As for people not wanting to expand because they like peace, first of all that again means conquest, and second, then it should be represented like that in game. Not with arbitrary, and certainly not with excessively punishing, modifiers like Civ 5 - the prime example of encouraging tall gameplay - did.

Note also that I did not intend to argue that always constantly expanding at the highest possible pace should work. Rather, there should always be a point where building another settler/city is the optimal choice. Not immediately after the last, but at some point (and reasonably soon, say after you've got your previous newest city's essentials up and running).

In my opinion, Civ 4's system with city maintenance is the best method the series has used up until this point, although I think improvement from there is definitely possible.
 
Hi, wanted to chime in on this.

I personally like Civ VI's artstyle for the most part, "goofy" as it can be. Philip has been criticized here for how exaggerated he is. That's a fair point, but he's also one of the most expressive leaders in the game through his animations, which I like. As others have mentioned, though, he's definitely on a different level than some others (for good and bad).

...however...

What. Were. They. Thinking. With. The. Governors????!!!! Why, just why. Caricatures, and not even fun caricatures. Unpleasant, extreme caricatures (i'd call them gross) with massive chins and noses and giraffe-like necks. Only Ibrahim is okay, and even then he is still visibly more stylized than the leader he comes from.

Why? Why even do this, going out of their way to exaggerate the designs for the governors so radically compared to the leaders??

The only reason I can think of is that they wanted their faces to be easily distinguishable when shrunk down to the tiny circle they inhabit beside your city name. That's an admirable pursuit, but when those very same faces are also displayed largely and prominently to the player, and- this is the most important- including the first time you see them, it makes it all that much worse. A new player gets their first governor title, clicks to spend it, and is met with an ensemble of distorted caricatures, distorted to the point that I've seen lets-players mistake Liang for a man. :blush:

On the topic of Liang, I'm all for unconventional female character designs. The entire rest of the industry pigeonholes them into very specific beauty standards, and generally, Civ does well with choosing to make their characters real characters with expressive faces as opposed to conventionally attractive ones. Clearly, it hasn't stopped certain fans from being attracted to them... (Cleopatra and Jadwiga...:shifty:). But when you make a female character with a design this distorted, it stops feeling like an honest attempt to make a unique character and more like you're trying to exaggerate to the point of ugliness.

And, sadly, that's the word I'd use for the governors. Ugly. Civ VI has a lot of beautiful art, in my opinion. I think almost everyone here can agree that the wonders and their construction are a sight to behold. But they made a very strange choice with the governors specifically, and ultimately one for the worse :(
 
The bias towards conquest/expansion is not limited to Civ VI, or Civ games in general. I quit playing Europa Universalis years ago, even though I love the period and a great deal of the game's elements, but because most of the minor states in the game are inevitably scooped up by the AI or human players until by the late game you have a few Massive Empires dominating the map. Compared to a late game Start in which most of the minor states still maintain some kind of independence, the artificiality of the 'Wide' programming is readily apparent and jarring. The last game, which I ended in the mid-17th century with Europe from the Bay of Biscay to the Balkans divided between massive French and Bavarian Empires with only a few minor powers hanging on between them, was the last straw for me.

Expansion can be limited by various Disorder, Disloyalty, Communication mechanics, but generally that just encourages the gamer to find ways to mitigate them and leaves the AI even further behind the human player. In Civ VI's case that means in the last several games I played (a year ago or more) every game included several AI Civs losing cities to Dark Age/Revolt and several games had at least one AI Civ completely destroyed by losing their Capital to Disloyalty, something I've never even been threatened with as a Human player.

On the other hand, the reality-based mechanics that penalized Expansion were primarily two:

1. The fact that everywhere you went except for the Far Arctic there were already people there, and unless you engaged in Genocide, you ended up with a population that was Foreign and not necessarily happy with your culture/civic/social order. Unless some fairly stringent efforts were made or generations of time went by, revolts were virtually a certainty. And if they had already had a Civ of their own (in game terms, even a City State) the efforts to turn them into copies of your native population were almost certainly doomed to fail: note the obvious modern example of Ukraine, subservient to Russia for centuries yet resurgently claiming their own independent identity now at gun (and drone) point. This was and is a major brake on Expansion: having to spend time, resources and effort maintaining control after spending time and effort getting control quickly limits you to stamping out local fires instead of spreading new ones. Note that of the Greatest Eurasian Conquerers: Alexander and Genghis, the former's Empire fell apart as soon as he died into several separate states and a resurgent Persian Empire within 150 years, the Mongolian Empire started to fragment into successor states within less than 100 years. Quite simply, with the communications and governing technologies and techniques of either Classical or Renaissance Eras it was simply not possible to maintain continent-spanning Empires of multiple ethnicities and cultures.

2. The fact that, as posted by @Krajzen, most people, including most rulers, are Risk Adverse. And, as was commonly remarked as early as the 13th century, Battle is a Gamble. In a few hours or a single mistake, everything you have been trying to accomplish for decades can be smashed beyond recovery (assuming you, the Ruler, survives at all). That makes Great Conquerers very rare, and even rarer when you factor in the Luck Factor: Alexander was wounded seriously several times, and his survival to age 33 was, frankly, a near miracle. The list of Potential Conquerers that didn't live long enough is much longer than of those that Survived to Conquer - even in Alexander's time it included men like Jason of Thessaly, with all the apparent skills and resources to be another Alexander, but killed by a skull-crushing falling roof tile before he barely got started.

So, how to model the Real factors that affected decisions, and the real problems that dragged conquests to a standstill after scarcely getting out of your homeland?

I suggest one way that I have already posted about: Victory Conditions that reflect how well your Civ did throughout the game rather than how it is doing on the Last Turn. IF percentage of units lost in battles is as important in determining victory as number of battles 'won', the gamer has to think twice about entering battle at all - as the actual Leader his little animation represents had to think. IF number of turns in which half or more of your population is in Revolt matters, you will have to be much more careful about trying to incorporate potentially revolting populations. A continent-spanning empire of seething revolutionaries does not a Victory make, and if political/religious/cultural/social Discontent is modeled in the game and used to calculate Victory, massive Expansion has to be very carefully considered by any competitive gamer . . .
 
I truly cannot fathom preferring the nightmare fuel of Civ 4 and 3 leader models to those of Civ 6.

Leader models in Civ 4 don’t even look like they belong in the same game. Compare Hatshepsut and Gandhi above. It’s like they were made by two different companies.

From what I can tell, Civ 4 had a rushed release date and was supposed to have more leaders. Gandhi and Hatshepsut were the first two they completed.

Also since it was mentioned by someone else, but Alex's Civ 4 model was originally supposed to be that of Augustus Caesar (hence why he's wearing the laurels), before being assigned to Alexander in post-production.
 
One thing that was changed in 6 that still bothers me is the "pay the full cost of moving" mechanic. I remember hearing one of the devs talking about how when he made that change everyone in the office hated it for like a week, but after that everyone was happy with it. I hoped I would be the same but several years later any time I play 5 again it's like units can actually have movement points again. The reasoning I heard is that it's supposed to make you be more cognisant of flat vs. rough terrain, but in my experience it has the opposite effect. In 5 if there was a flat tile on it's own, crossing it would be fast because you could move into rough terrain right after, but in 6 it might as well be rough because you're still just moving at 1 tile per turn through it. It's additionally annoying because 6's map generation loves to generate that type of terrain unless the map is extremely huge.
Agree with this. The early game exploration of the map is among the best parts of the game, and it is so slowed down in Civ VI, to the point where it's usually not even fun.

I love moving one tile per turn, thanks game.
 
Agree with this. The early game exploration of the map is among the best parts of the game, and it is so slowed down in Civ VI, to the point where it's usually not even fun.

I love moving one tile per turn, thanks game.
Yes, movement in 6 is extremely tedious. One of the most unpleasant features of 6.
 
No one?

Guess it's up to me then.

I loved movement in Civ 6. Speed is much more important than in previous games, as is carefully planning out your route to maximize tiles covered. Also, it benefits a chasing unit over one that's running away, which is a major improvement imo.
 
Fixed leaders a leader can be overthrown, killed, die, and a leader alone cannot represent millennia of civilisation
 
No one?

Guess it's up to me then.

I loved movement in Civ 6. Speed is much more important than in previous games, as is carefully planning out your route to maximize tiles covered. Also, it benefits a chasing unit over one that's running away, which is a major improvement imo.

It's annoying because it is slow. But it's good because it's slow. Too often in earlier games, you can basically speed through hills and jungle because you have the occasional flatland that you can use to hop through to get to the next tile.

I think if the map was like 2x wider and 2x taller than it is now, then sure, I would love to have the extra movement allowances, and have a bit more flexibility. But given the maps aren't terribly large, if you let units get those extra movement points all over the place, I think it just makes exploration too easy. It's fitting that it's a struggle to get through the jungle.
 
Fixed leaders a leader can be overthrown, killed, die, and a leader alone cannot represent millennia of civilisation

Fiven the fact the game's format covers 6000 years in as few as 400 turns on the standard speed (so 15 years per turn on average), what you are asking is basically leader changing every second turn, which doesn't sound fun at all :p

Or alternately civs having no "face" at all, which is even worse (cough cough the flop of Humankind)
 
Fiven the fact the game's format covers 6000 years in as few as 400 turns on the standard speed (so 15 years on average), what you are asking is basically leader changing every second turn, which doesn't sound fun at all :p
Yeah, good point...if a leader "living" for the entire length of the game is unrealistic, how is a leader living for 400 years any better? In the early game each turn ticks the calendar by hundreds of years.
 
Even by the modern eras when it is 2 years per turn it would still suck, because most modern leaders rule only for a few years, so we'd go from civ's leader changing every turn to changing like every 2-5 turns, gee how engaging.
 
And you'd have to have that many actual, historical rulers for each civ, which we don't. So you'd have to make up hundreds of generic Alexander the Great Jr.s, Alexander the Great III, Alexander the Great IV, ad nauseum.

Which just wouldn't be great.
 
And you'd have to have that many actual, historical rulers for each civ, which we don't. So you'd have to make up hundreds of generic Alexander the Great Jr.s, Alexander the Great III, Alexander the Great IV, ad nauseum.

Which just wouldn't be great.
It is not a matter of amusement but a correct simulation of possible development of civilization : there are different polities of a republic, absolute monarchy parliamentary monarchy, fascism, communism , theocracy
 
It is not a matter of amusement but a correct simulation of possible development of civilization : there are different polities of a republic, absolute monarchy parliamentary monarchy, fascism, communism , theocracy

Ok then I don't want a correct simulation of possible development of civilization.
 
It is not a matter of amusement but a correct simulation of possible development of civilization : there are different polities of a republic, absolute monarchy parliamentary monarchy, fascism, communism , theocracy
The problem is that 'you' aren't playing the leader but some sort of god that wears the leader's face as a mask.
 
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