Things you *don't* want to see in Civ7 and its expansions

One of the things (among a long list I'll spare readers) I'd like to see Civ avoid is listening to fans who want to go the Paradox route of creating increasingly complex rules and overly complicated systems. One of the charms of Civ is its simplicity. It is easy to learn and then the strategy evolves as the game snowballs and new systems come online with research/age advancement. Civ has never been, nor should it try to be a historically-accurate simulation. It's a game inspired by history, but always a game.

There has been a lot of discussion about ways to overcomplicate the 1UPT concept to deal with the stack of doom/carpet of doom issue, ways to integrate a bunch of different religious concepts, even to overcomplicate roads. Just keep it as a simple movement cost decrease. The more we try and chase realism, the bigger the learning curve will be, and the more difficult balancing all of the complex mechanics will be. That leads to bugs and exploits.

I want them to focus on making a fun game first. Not the politics. Not precise historical accuracy. Not pandering to one group or another, even to long-time civ fans (ie we don't need to continue the Gandhi nuke thing, do we?). Just make a great game.
 
One of the things (among a long list I'll spare readers) I'd like to see Civ avoid is listening to fans who want to go the Paradox route of creating increasingly complex rules and overly complicated systems
Yes! If I want to play a paradox game I'll play a paradox game! I enjoy them, so I'm not badmouthing them, but I want Civ to still feel like Civ.
 
One of the things (among a long list I'll spare readers) I'd like to see Civ avoid is listening to fans who want to go the Paradox route of creating increasingly complex rules and overly complicated systems. One of the charms of Civ is its simplicity. It is easy to learn and then the strategy evolves as the game snowballs and new systems come online with research/age advancement. Civ has never been, nor should it try to be a historically-accurate simulation. It's a game inspired by history, but always a game.

There has been a lot of discussion about ways to overcomplicate the 1UPT concept to deal with the stack of doom/carpet of doom issue, ways to integrate a bunch of different religious concepts, even to overcomplicate roads. Just keep it as a simple movement cost decrease. The more we try and chase realism, the bigger the learning curve will be, and the more difficult balancing all of the complex mechanics will be. That leads to bugs and exploits.

I want them to focus on making a fun game first. Not the politics. Not precise historical accuracy. Not pandering to one group or another, even to long-time civ fans (ie we don't need to continue the Gandhi nuke thing, do we?). Just make a great game.
And it is precisely from a simulation of political events and possible revolutions applied to modern AI that makes a beautiful and lasting game, do not gate a useless list of leaders and civilizations!
 
There has been a lot of discussion about ways to overcomplicate the 1UPT concept to deal with the stack of doom/carpet of doom issue
I think the is issue is that the overcomplication is already present by the inherent nature of 1upt. It complicates movement in a way the AI struggles mightily with.

Other complicated systems are there already too. Civic policies. AI can't or won't evaluate policy cards correctly. Barely see it run serfdom. District placement, hamstrings itself here too. Prioritizes incorrectly. So many encampments when it's not going for military victory, each carrying the opportunity cost of building a more useful district for approx 1 era until pop grows.

I don't really care how complicated systems are or are not. After a certain point it's all simple. What's more important is the AI's ability to effectively utilize the systems. Without that victory is not only simple, its child's play.
 
I don't want to see too many options which confuse the A.I. and make winning too easy.
No heroes, zombies and vampires etc and stick to the basics.
No cramped maps either - Civ is about exploring and the world just seems way too small, way too quickly on Civ 6.
 
No heroes, zombies and vampires etc and stick to the basics.
I don't mind them getting added in a optional, "for fun" game modes. IIRC, in 6, they got added only after the game had had its two full expansions to get the major game systems in, so they weren't taking development time from the real game. No one was ever forced to play them. They were entirely opt-in in nature. I'm ok with that, late in the development cycle when you start thinking of fun mutators to the rules to spice up a ... mature, I won't say old... game and keep it feeling fresh and fun to play.
I think the is issue is that the overcomplication is already present by the inherent nature of 1upt. It complicates movement in a way the AI struggles mightily with.
The more I play of some of the older 4X games in my library while waiting for 7 to come out, the more I appreciate this. Being able to stack up an army and move it as a single unit really simplifies movement around the map. Strict 1UPT becomes a micromanagement nightmare, especially as you add more units and get later into the game. One of things I've been thinking about a lot is how to streamline the late game so you don't get bogged down with meaningless micromanagement and still have enough to do each turn that you're not just mindlessly clicking "next turn" waiting for a VC to complete. Details on that are probably for another, more dedicated thread, but for unit movement, I've found I like:
  • Letting the tech tree open up new unit classes (ie infantry, ranged, cavalry, air, support, etc)
  • Allowing players to stack multiple units into a single army and move them as a unit
  • Letting the tech tree or age transitions allow larger limits on how large an army may be
The big design choice here is whether to stick with Civ's very simple combat model, where everything's on the same layer of the same map, and combat is a matter of single unit interactions and a single, simple damage calculation or to transition to a more complex one where the battle occurs in its own layer and players conduct each battle in its own turn-based approach. This preserves the strategic complexity and fixes the crowding issues on the map, but can end up being incredibly time-consuming and tedious, especially late in the game with very one-sided battles. In 6, they chose to compromise a little bit by allowing formation of corps and armies, which did preserve that quick and simple interface, but it was too late in the game and not nearly enough to get the problem really under control for the AI to navigate. It didn't stop the "carpet of doom" problem.

I think they ultimately have to allow units to stack up into proper armies. People like that. I'd like to see the game embrace having great generals commanding armies as a complete army, rather than moving everything piecemeal like you did in 5 and 6. I do like the strategic layer of having different unit types and various counters and supports. I also think having a specific point where you do have large armies come together and duke it out either on open fields or over a besieged city is a lot of fun. I have enjoyed what Amplitude did in Endless Legend:
  • You build up armies under a general
  • You besiege a city to slowly lower its defenses, which allows the defender some time to react and move forces to defend
  • The tech tree controls access to new unit types and to larger army checkpoints
  • No city ranged auto-attacks, everything comes from the units
  • Cities get a default set of militia (weaker melee units) as a baseline defense and a weak set of walls as baseline, which can be improved with buildings.
I don't think Civ needs to be customizing units or equipping items on heroes like an RPG. That's more complexity than Civ needs. To the extent you get custom units that can be done in the baseline unit design and UUs like Civ has classically done. Ultimately the goal here is to preserve the simple, responsive play Civ fans are used to, give combat enough complexity that strategic decisions are involved and do matter, and still leave the model in a state that the AI can use it effectively.
 
Because we can't be too optimistic! Those things can be anything - civilizations and leaders that you dislike, mechanics, design problems, proposed innovations that you think are terrible etc.

If they are going to stick with Civ VI iteration of the world Congress I’d rather see it scrapped entirely. Not being able to select proposals and even the flavor of “First Congress of X” was very missed
 
I am playing a game of civ vi now for the first time in a long time, and please no more emergencies. It feels extremely gamey and ahistorical and makes it so that if you want to play on a setting where natural disasters actually happen, diplomatic victory becomes the only type of victory. Better yet, throw out the entire world congress as seen in CIV VI.
 
Yeah, all settlements, big or small, should be razable. Hope it is so.

I have a controversial counter opinion: I don't like razing at all. I know it should be an option due to the game's free settling format and AI propensity to settle terrible locations, but it is simply ahistorical and immersion breaking for me for entire areas of civilization to just disappear into empty anarchy.... even in the 20th century. "Razing" as done by Mongols did mean drastic collapse in population in given area, but not Central Asia being reclaimed by steppes and removed from any state control back to the state of nature...

How many historical examples do we have of civilization being completely obliterated from an entire region by the invader, to the point of forests and wild animals reclaiming it? I'm not even sure many parts of Roman empire would qualify under civ idea of razing. Mayas don't count - it was not because of a conquest.

I would enjoy a mod for myself to disable razing after classical or medieval era, so I can remove stupid AI cities but not see half of Europe casually disappear and turn into the forest in the year 2000 AD.
 
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My only concern with the idea of razing capitols is the rule set for dealing with Domination victory types. The rule is that you must control the capitols. This implies that my job is to:
  1. Capture the capitol cities, which are well defended and powerful
  2. Hold them and defend them from counterattack. Losing one allows that player to get back into the game, even if I've eliminated all his other cities
If you allow razing a capitol, you prevent counterplay. You prevent that other player from being able to counterattack and recapture his lost capitol. I'm not sure that's in the spirit of the game. In principle, I totally agree with being able to raze and salt the earth after conquest, but the game's rule set puts some constraints on that for capitols at least.
 
I have a controversial counter opinion: I don't like razing at all. I know it should be an option due to the game's free settling format and AI propensity to settle terrible locations, but it is simply ahistorical and immersion breaking for me for entire areas of civilization to just disappear into empty anarchy.... even in the 20th century. "Razing" as done by Mongols did mean drastic collapse in population in given area, but not Central Asia being reclaimed by steppes and removed from any state control back to the state of nature...

How many historical examples do we have of civilization being completely obliterated from an entire region by the invader, to the point of forests and wild animals reclaiming it? I'm not even sure many parts of Roman empire would qualify under civ idea of razing. Mayas don't count - it was not because of a conquest.

I would enjoy a mod for myself to disable razing after classical or medieval era, so I can remove stupid AI cities but not see half of Europe casually disappear and turn into the forest in the year 2000 AD.
I agree, that civs don't disappear in the real world. The "lost cities" in meso-America taken over by jungle were not necessarily conquered by others; they were reclaimed by nature after the people left or died of disease.

At the same time, my experience in Civ games is that the land does not stay unoccupied for long. After a player (human or AI) razes a city, a new city is planted in the same neighborhood -- especially if the area contains a river. The only exceptions I can think of were players pursuing the Civ2/Civ3/Civ4 conquest victory condition, where one must conquer and eliminate every other player's city. At some point, especially in Civ3 and Civ4, the player intent on conquest needs to raze cities to avoid triggering the domination victory condition, where one wins by having X% of the world's population and Y% of the world's land under your control.

Granted, if the developers make all cities raze-able, then they would *have to* rethink the Civ5/Civ6 military victory condition. If original capitals may be razed, then does the VC become "only player still controlling its own original capital?"
 
Something else. Don't utterly ruin diplomatic relationships if a player gets wide.

The challenge is NOT supposed to be from having every AI in the game hate you. So seldom are great empires brought down from external pressure, they collapse from within.

As importantly, it makes the late game a tedious, nightmarish slog. Every single game that has taken that approach ruins its late game. Even non 4x games like Bannerlord destroy the fun factor by coding for civilizations to endlessly attack despite the total lack of self interest in doing so once the player reaches a certain size. It's one of the absolute worst trends in gaming.

Find a better solution to expansion than that.
 
I don't want to see "side quests" anymore - that means Eureka, Inspiration and Era Score. I hate having to chase very specific things I would otherwise not do just to have an advantage. Very annoying system.
 
Something else. Don't utterly ruin diplomatic relationships if a player gets wide.

The challenge is NOT supposed to be from having every AI in the game hate you. So seldom are great empires brought down from external pressure, they collapse from within.

As importantly, it makes the late game a tedious, nightmarish slog. Every single game that has taken that approach ruins its late game. Even non 4x games like Bannerlord destroy the fun factor by coding for civilizations to endlessly attack despite the total lack of self interest in doing so once the player reaches a certain size. It's one of the absolute worst trends in gaming.

Find a better solution to expansion than that.

Why is it unrealistic, if you've taken half the map, for the remaining people to be like... Hmmm.... Maybe I want that land.
The more you expand, the more 'personal space' you should be violating, and hence the more disliked you are.

I agree, they shouldn't mindlessly attack you, but some kind of Jealousy system for AI would make it actually interesting instead of brain dead.

They should have personalities and goals, coordination with other AIs, expansive mindsets, and aim to win the game, like genuine opponents
 
When England controlled a quarter of the world's land area, I'm sure everyone else just said "nope, not gonna fight that", right?

Right?
 
Why is it unrealistic, if you've taken half the map, for the remaining people to be like... Hmmm.... Maybe I want that land.
The more you expand, the more 'personal space' you should be violating, and hence the more disliked you are.

I agree, they shouldn't mindlessly attack you, but some kind of Jealousy system for AI would make it actually interesting instead of brain dead.

They should have personalities and goals, coordination with other AIs, expansive mindsets, and aim to win the game, like genuine opponents
Because aggression is predatory and opportunistic, and an empire twice your size with an army 10x as powerful isn't the prey. You are.

How many times has the AI denounced a player who had forgotten they exist and got crushed after the pop up, VS how many times has their coalition of the resentful actually produced a result? Even insults are ******** at a certain point.

Developers have that idea in a lot of games. It steals the joy and their AI gets wailed on all the same, if the player doesn't just quit because of how tedious it is. "you're too big! We three nations hate you! We declare war!". 40 turns later, 3 nations gone that wouldn't be otherwise. Then, "you're too big! We 6 nations hate you! We declare war!". 6 nations gone.
 
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Because aggression is predatory and opportunistic, and an empire twice your size with an army 10x as powerful isn't the prey. You are.

How many times has the AI denounced a player who had forgotten they exist and got crushed after the pop up, VS how many times has their coalition of the resentful actually produced a result? Even insults are ******ed at a certain point.

Developers have that idea in a lot of games. It steals the joy and their AI gets wailed on all the same, if the player doesn't just quit because of how tedious it is. "you're too big! We three nations hate you! We declare war!". 40 turns later, 3 nations gone that wouldn't be otherwise. Then, "you're too big! We 6 nations hate you! We declare war!". 6 nations gone.

The AI should have to weigh it up. For example, if you conquer or expand too much but you don't have the army to back it up THEN they'll attack. They won't attack if they don't think they will win. They will only attack if your army is distracted elsewhere. They will attack opportunistically (as you suggest) when you become at war elsewhere. Or when you have a revolt or famine or disease.

The problem you are talking about is because the AI in Civ is genuinely terrible. If it would be better, then there's no problem with teaming AIs and expansive AI, angry and reactive AI, you know what I mean.

Fyi it would be very boring if they turned completely timid just because the odds of the AI winning isn't 100% in their favour
 
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