This game is so arbitrary, makes me quit.

[theDregs]

I got tired of being horrible at this game a few weeks after I bought it and put it away for a year or so. So now I am back playing and I am seeing what i hated iun the first place. the war rules make no sense at all.

Here is an example. Today i am playing as India and Germany decides to attack me because they want a piece of my tiny little rich island. I am prepared fore this. I have three galleys and the great Lighthouse. One loaded with a pair of pikemen.

The German galley comes into view. I send my two unloaded galeys at it, it eats them up, losing one life but becoming a veteran. I am forced to send my last galley as well...which it promptly sinks.

What? What did I do wrong here? The game is full of stuff like that. I had an enemy archer drop TWO of my knights.

It seems the only way to win a war in this game is to launch a massive attack of units that you know will get slaughtered even if they are better than the troops they are fighting. it is ridiculous and makes no sense. makes me turn the game off in disgust.

What in the world am I doing wrong?

 

[Pyrrhos]

You're not doing anything wrong, it's the way the game is. What you could do to minimise the effects of the idio..., err... combat system is to uncheck "preserve random seed" when you start a new game, then save before every combat and reload when the game throws **** in your face. After all, it is about enjoying the game isn't it!

 

[Aabraxan]

Welcome to CFC, theDregs!

You'll hear lots of references around here to the RNG (Random Number Generator), also known as the PRNG (Pseudo RNG). It can be maddening, but it doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong.

The Preserve Random Seed box, to which Pyrrhos referred, determines whether, given the same actions, you'll get the same results if you reload. With it on, if I attack at the very beginning of a turn and lose, reloading won't do me any good. If I reload and attack at the very beginning of my turn again, I'll lose again. If it's off, I might get a different result.

While Pyrrhos is correct in the function of the Preserver Random Seed, I'd suggest something different. First, visit the Civ III War Academy. In particular, there's an article there entitled Warmongering 101: A Practical Primer. If warfare is giving you fits, that's a good place to start. There are many good articles there, but it sounds like that's your most pressing problem right now.

As to the whole issue of having your galleys sunk. The AI is notoriously bad at naval invasions. It routinely will do things like dropping off one archer to take your island, which is filled with infantry . . . Why keep sending galleys out when you've already lost two? Why not put a stack of Medieval Infantry right next to where the AI keeps trying to land and kill whatever it drops off? Put a couple of cats nearby and ping its galleys. Once you've redlined its galleys, it will send them home to heal.

With all that said, you can reduce your losses on land by loading up on catapults (artillery units in general, actually) to pair with your 1-move units and fast attackers. As to the archer & knights, are you building veteran units? Building a few raxes and starting with vets really improves their chances of surviving.

 

[Theov]

(see below)

 

[Theov]

I am forced to send my last galley as well...which it promptly sinks.

What? What did I do wrong here?

(nevermind)

It seems the only way to win a war in this game is to launch a massive attack of units

I don't see what's not fun about that.

What in the world am I doing wrong?

Improve your tactics. Use the terrain, add different units (defense and bombard units)

 

[theDregs]

I didn't say "which promptly sinks"
I said "which IT promptly sinks", meaning the enemy galley.

And I needed to sink it badly. My force on the island was only fledgling, and it was wiped out by the archer and warrior on the German boat. I mean..if I attacked an enemy spearman inside a city with an archer and a warrior, there is a very slim chance I'd come away with a win..the enemy didn't even need the warrior, their archer took me out just fine. Aaaarrgh.

 

[Theov]

I didn't say "which promptly sinks"
I said "which IT promptly sinks", meaning the enemy galley.

It's very friday afternoon here, so sorry about that.

 

[Chamnix]

You must have been winning by a large margin - the game was trying to "challenge" you .

 

[FLump]

Y'know most PRNG stuff I chalk up to bad luck, but I've also witnessed alot of what might be described as "very statistically improbable" battles when it comes to galley on galley action.

The situation theDregs points out, where one stinkin galley sinks 3 galleys, is not uncommon at all in my experience. My math is not precise, but in order for that to happen, given attack = defense = 1, veteran vs. veteran, where the defender doesn't lose one tick, is 0.5^12 = 0.000244140625, or 0.0244140625%. I see this kinda thing with galleys WAAAAAY more often than 0.02% of the time.

What I am not taking into consideration is the 50% defense bonus for potentially being fortified, and whatever defense bonus water gives (if any?). Does Civ 3 round 1.5 up to 2? Throwing that in makes it a bit better. Has to be something like that.

In any event, history is full of that kind of thing (300 supposedly happened - one hoplite vs. an immortal/archer SOD ).

 

[timerover51]

I got tired of being horrible at this game a few weeks after I bought it and put it away for a year or so. So now I am back playing and I am seeing what i hated iun the first place. the war rules make no sense at all.

Here is an example. Today i am playing as India and Germany decides to attack me because they want a piece of my tiny little rich island. I am prepared fore this. I have three galleys and the great Lighthouse. One loaded with a pair of pikemen.

The German galley comes into view. I send my two unloaded galeys at it, it eats them up, losing one life but becoming a veteran. I am forced to send my last galley as well...which it promptly sinks.

What? What did I do wrong here? The game is full of stuff like that. I had an enemy archer drop TWO of my knights.

It seems the only way to win a war in this game is to launch a massive attack of units that you know will get slaughtered even if they are better than the troops they are fighting. it is ridiculous and makes no sense. makes me turn the game off in disgust.

What in the world am I doing wrong?

You are dealing with two problems, one of which is the Randon Number Generator, which in effect is throwing the dice for the combat result. It does have a tendency to produce really weird results, and I have a suspicion that it might be a bit biased to the AI, having had tanks taken down by war elephants and spearmen, and an Ironclad badly chewed up by a galley.

The second problem is the combat system in general, with very little benefit of having a higher tech level unit. That drives me nuts as well, which is why I do a lot of editing of unit values. However, two buildings that are must haves are the barracks for veteran ground units and the harbor for veteran naval units. Veteran verses regular seems to have more effect than higher technology. Also, do not load any naval unit that you are going to send into combat, except carriers, as the added land units have no effect. Save the pikeman for your cities. Load naval units that can transport only when you have a definite destination in mind.

You might also want to check what level you are playing at. If you are finding the game frustrating, you might consider dropping down a level or two to gain a better understanding of the game mechanics. If you are playing at regent, drop down to warlord or chieftain, and then work your way back up. You could also check on the aggression setting you are using, and consider who you are setting up for opponents. Militaristic civilizations are not the best ones to start against.

I can understand your frustration, as that is what drove me to get a Windows box for game editing, as I am on Macs with no editor for anything but the basic game. For a while, I was playing a solo game, and just seeing if I could get to the star ship before 2100. However, you can also try some of the scenarios that come with the game, such as the Age of Discovery, which is actually pretty good. The AI is not out to attack you per se, and you can work on learning the game better. If you play that one, the English do very well. The Dutch are a bit tougher. Have not played the Spanish or Portugese, but they should do well also.

 

[rysingsun]

I get disgusted at combat too. Like just the other day I had three swordsmen come at my city defended by just a single warrior. I was like, "oh wow I really messed this up!". And then the three swords attacked my city and my warrior promoted to elite and killed the three swords! I turned off my computer in disgust! Later that same game I got three MGL's in only three turns. I'm sorry you guys, but in situations like this I just think I"m justified in reloading.

 

[DS_Legionary]

There is really one thing you need to realize about the combat system more then anything. It's all about odds. Going into any given battle there is a percentage that you will win, and a percentage that you lose. Say you have two full health regular warriors about to engage, on attacking the other defending. Disregard the defensive bonus for the time being that the defender would normally get. We have 1:1 attack to defense ratio. You have a 50% chance to win this battle (excluding the odd RNG stupidity). Say that defender was on a mountain which is a 100% defense bonus. This puts the ratio at 1:2 attack to defense. The attackers chance of winning drops to only 33%. Now say your attacker was a veteran and the defender was a regular...no defensive bonuses. The odds are technically still 50%, but you have an extra hitpoint, this gives your unit the edge. I'm not 100% if there is a way to calculate percentages in that instance, but I'd say the attacks chance of winning is upped to 66% possibly greater.

Two things to take into account in any war situation. #1 Make the odds in your favor. When I say this I mean only attack when your chance of winning is 50% or greater. If the enemy has superior units technologically cats/trebs are great equalizers and will always put the odds in your favor. Have an enemy unit on a hill or mountain? Lure him to open grass or plains area, his defensive bonus drops from 100% to only 10%.

#2 There is always some sort of bonus to the defender. Cities/Metros, mountain, hills, and rivers are the main ones you need to worry about. Check the civolopedia for the exact bonuses, but lets just say that you don't want to attack a city from across a river.

One final thing. If you can outproduce the AI then the odds are always in your favor. On the F11 screen the last category is productivity. This is basically how many total sheilds your empire puts out in a turn. (Don't recall if that includes corrupted sheilds or not) You should be number one from the middle ages on in most of your games. I can do this easily even on Emperor level so anything lower is definately doable. The key to doing this is workers. They are arguably, and IMO, the MVP of every game. DO NOT AUTOMATE THEM EITHER!!!!!! I can't stress that enough. This is where human intellect always outhines the AI (even the RNG) and you should never throw away this advantage.

I guess to sum up, take into account defensive bonuses, play the odds, be productive and NEVER AUTOMATE WORKERS!!!! Long as you take these things into account, the AI may take your island, but you will be far more productive then them and you will take that island back and then some.

Hope this helps.

 

[The Professor]

I'm confused...maybe I'm not reading this right, but why did you load pikeman onto a galley? Especially since you say, in a subsequent post, that

And I needed to sink it badly. My force on the island was only fledgling, and it was wiped out by the archer and warrior on the German boat.

Why would you send away your best defensive units?

On another note, you mentioned owning the Great Lighthouse. There is always a tradeoff between building improvements (especially wonders) and military strength. If you were planning on going for a 20K culture victory, that may be a tradeoff that you are prepared to make, but you really need to consider if that wonder is worth the units that you could have made in the meantime.

As for the Random factor in warfare, yes it irks me when I lose a battle that I think I should have won, but I know there's been plenty of times when the luck has been in my favor, too.

 

[Chamnix]

I get disgusted at combat too. Like just the other day I had three swordsmen come at my city defended by just a single warrior. I was like, "oh wow I really messed this up!". And then the three swords attacked my city and my warrior promoted to elite and killed the three swords! I turned off my computer in disgust! Later that same game I got three MGL's in only three turns. I'm sorry you guys, but in situations like this I just think I"m justified in reloading.

Did you successfully lose the city after reloading?

 

[TheOverseer714]

I think every player has that, "Oh c'mon, that was [beep]!" from combat results. It is because games like this, along with older RPG's base the combat on dice rolls. Those dice are loaded in the favor of the defender. The only way to change the outcome is to load the dice in your favor. That means bombardment, mobile attackers who can retreat, attacking on favorable terrain, using higher attack units, etc. Even then, it's still a dice roll, you can still lose, thus is slightly possible. Just remember, it is a game, and all games have chance based outcomes.

 

[Othniel]

I get disgusted at combat too. Like just the other day I had three swordsmen come at my city defended by just a single warrior. I was like, "oh wow I really messed this up!". And then the three swords attacked my city and my warrior promoted to elite and killed the three swords! I turned off my computer in disgust! Later that same game I got three MGL's in only three turns. I'm sorry you guys, but in situations like this I just think I"m justified in reloading.

Well said.

The game giveth and the game taketh away. Blessed be Civ.

 

[Jokeslayer]

I actually like that the combat system allows older units to stand a chance against newer ones. It's not like spears beating tanks is that common, and at least this way it's never a guaranteed walk-over when Mr Modern Era picks on someone whose mystified by Nationalism. It is a game after all, and if modern units just couldn't lose, there'd be less strategy (tech pace vs. military build up)

 

[MAS]

I know this is about a PnP RPG, and not Civ3, but its still appropriate:

Dork Tower: Wednesday, April 09, 2008
Dork Tower: Friday, April 11, 2008

 

[theDregs]

I'm confused...maybe I'm not reading this right, but why did you load pikeman onto a galley? Especially since you say, in a subsequent post, that Why would you send away your best defensive units?

On another note, you mentioned owning the Great Lighthouse. There is always a tradeoff between building improvements (especially wonders) and military strength. If you were planning on going for a 20K culture victory, that may be a tradeoff that you are prepared to make, but you really need to consider if that wonder is worth the units that you could have made in the meantime.

As for the Random factor in warfare, yes it irks me when I lose a battle that I think I should have won, but I know there's been plenty of times when the luck has been in my favor, too.

The little island wasn't my starting island. It was a map with lots of islands. the pikemen were actually on their way elswhere. I figured the great Lighthouse was worth the investment on a map like this, isn't it?

I also know the game is based on percentages, but it just seems to buck the odds so often. I have been playing wargames for years and I have a good idea of what is and isn't probable. I don't know....something is funky with the numbers generated in Civ 3. is civ 4 like this as well?

 

[theDregs]

I'm confused...maybe I'm not reading this right, but why did you load pikeman onto a galley? Especially since you say, in a subsequent post, that Why would you send away your best defensive units?

On another note, you mentioned owning the Great Lighthouse. There is always a tradeoff between building improvements (especially wonders) and military strength. If you were planning on going for a 20K culture victory, that may be a tradeoff that you are prepared to make, but you really need to consider if that wonder is worth the units that you could have made in the meantime.

As for the Random factor in warfare, yes it irks me when I lose a battle that I think I should have won, but I know there's been plenty of times when the luck has been in my favor, too.

The little island wasn't my starting island. It was a map with lots of islands. the pikemen were actually on their way elswhere. I figured the great Lighthouse was worth the investment on a map like this, isn't it?

I also know the game is based on percentages, but it just seems to buck the odds so often. I have been playing wargames for years and I have a good idea of what is and isn't probable. I don't know....something is funky with the numbers generated in Civ 3. is civ 4 like this as well?

And i know the post about getting angry when you units luck out was sarcastic, but it bothers me just as much. it turns a game of poker into a game of Yahtzee. Just roll the dice, nothing you can do to affect the outcome.