Thoughts/suggestions about game options

Oh those! No I usually dont set them. But I played today with ai city governor option turned on, and it didnt produce any military units! I thought it did before, as thats how it was in A New Dawn. Glad it isn't like it here.
 
makotech222 said:
Oh those! No I usually dont set them. But I played today with ai city governor option turned on, and it didnt produce any military units! I thought it did before, as thats how it was in A New Dawn. Glad it isn't like it here.
Click to expand...

The 'use AI governors' option is something I added a couple of months ago. Prior to that (and in common with ROM/AND) it used the BtS default (aka braindead) governor. The option just switches it over to the same routines the AI uses (with the restriction of not producing units).
 
I doubt that would be entirely necessary DH. But setting up the option(s) would certainly take some time and effort in the dll that isn't considered the highest priority at the moment anyhow. I'd be interested in seeing if he's got some source coding for the implemented option(s). That would make it a bit easier to install. Some of the rest of the things he's got there look interesting as well... hmm...
 
New game option: Limited wonders

Cities are limited to a single World Wonder and single National Wonder.

This would be a preferred option for much larger maps. Although on smaller maps,t his would make for interesting choices. Though there would be a possibility of running out of place to build wonders and having to create crappy cities just to fit more wonders in.

This leads to second option I wish to discuss: Cheaper Wonders

Wonders requiring less Hammers to build, or possibly ability to build wonders WITH culture. Instead of culture going to increasing city culture, it could be used to build wonders while the wonder is in queue. Kinda like you can use food now to build settlers/workers. This option would make it easier to build wonders in cities that do not have access to a lot of hammers. And it makes sense.
 
astax said:
new game option: Limited wonders

cities are limited to a single world wonder and single national wonder.

This would be a preferred option for much larger maps. Although on smaller maps,t his would make for interesting choices. Though there would be a possibility of running out of place to build wonders and having to create crappy cities just to fit more wonders in.

This leads to second option i wish to discuss: Cheaper wonders

wonders requiring less hammers to build, or possibly ability to build wonders with culture. Instead of culture going to increasing city culture, it could be used to build wonders while the wonder is in queue. Kinda like you can use food now to build settlers/workers. This option would make it easier to build wonders in cities that do not have access to a lot of hammers. And it makes sense.
Click to expand...

do not want!
 
Astax said:
New game option: Limited wonders

Cities are limited to a single World Wonder and single National Wonder.

This would be a preferred option for much larger maps. Although on smaller maps,t his would make for interesting choices. Though there would be a possibility of running out of place to build wonders and having to create crappy cities just to fit more wonders in.

This leads to second option I wish to discuss: Cheaper Wonders

Wonders requiring less Hammers to build, or possibly ability to build wonders WITH culture. Instead of culture going to increasing city culture, it could be used to build wonders while the wonder is in queue. Kinda like you can use food now to build settlers/workers. This option would make it easier to build wonders in cities that do not have access to a lot of hammers. And it makes sense.
Click to expand...

It's a fairly trivial XML edit to do this if you wanted to. I forget which file it's in (pm aiandy if you want to know), but basically the number allowed for each city culture level is defined and could easily be set to 1 if you wanted that)
 
:nuke:If city limits are removed... I'm afraid I'm going to require your home address Joseph... and all the people that took your side... so that I may do hidieously illegal things to you all for managing to make this mod completely unplayable for no reason. Please stop making me consider such things.:nuke:

Seriously... its an option so power gaming diety players can choice it. Inflicting it upon those of us that may accidently try to enjoy the game as anything but a constant blitzkreig of war and madness suffer is just cruel.

I will now explain why. I'm an eternity player. I play enormous maps with 50 civs and continents. This means the map can literally hold hundreds of cities. I've had the AI Civs spam cities so hard they start overlapping ring one squares. This is with city limits on.

1. See the thing is that city limits keep Civs from doing nothing, but spaming cities and using them to spam more cities... to spam more cities... to the point the all start demanding Open Borders constantly for the sole reason of adding a city on a single square of unclaimed space in between four of your cities. Suddenly you have this diplomatic migraine of a huge negative multiplier from overlapping borders.

Then the AI does that again and again until it declares war on you... only its so over built that it only has stone age units... and that stupid 1 square city is auto burned and now you have a 'You burned my city!' perminent negative to relations for each useless city the build inside your borders and you are forces to burn their Civ to the ground so they don't endlessly pay other Civs to declare useless war on you. Giving you more permenent negatives to relation as you 'declared war on my friend'...

2. If they keep spreading out endlessly they keep contacting each other and even if you only met a single Civ... the AI loves trying to get you to pay them to introduce you to another Civ. Then one gets the clever idea to constantly donate those contacts with other Civs to you... so that that new civ can constantly demand free stuffs from you to the point you spend 5-15 minutes a turn simply turning down their constant demands. There is no way to cut ties with these Civs and a different one would donate the contacts to you if you did. Diplomatic isolation is ignored after 20 turns anyway... on eternity.

3. (v22) Then you get to the AI that is spiritual and takes over a continent as Spiritual is hidiously broken... I had a game with city limits on that ended when I was just getting to 14 cities and a spiriutal leader contact was forced on me... he had 45+ (going on 70 in less than 200 turns (14000+ turn on eternity)) cities and was donating every contact he made to literally every Civ and the game turns were 15-20 minutes each... mostly from trying to process 30+ civs worth of threats and demands with each other.

---Short answer--- Making every game require permenent war to not take 15-20 minutes is fun why? That kills over half the programming of the game.
 
Necratoid said:
:nuke:If city limits are removed... I'm afraid I'm going to require your home address Joseph... and all the people that took your side... so that I may do hidieously illegal things to you all for managing to make this mod completely unplayable for no reason. Please stop making me consider such things.:nuke:
Click to expand...

Not gonna happen I assure you. I might (very well) modify the mechanic so it's a bit looser at lower difficulty settings, but I am certainly not going to be removing it.
 
@necratoid,
You do know that the game used to play just fine before City Limits was introduced by Afforess?

I have no problem with City Limits being an Option AS LONG AS it's not a redundant AI limiting one. And That is what it's become. Koshling's new idea for it maybe the push this Option needs to play well with the AI.

There are a lot of things in your post that I would like to address but if you are basing all this off of v22 then you are way behind. And it would be a futile effort.

Gist is: Play Styles. You choose extreme #'s of AI, extreme gamespeed settings, extreme etc., you got what you've set up.

And I like you too! ;)

JosEPh :)
 
@Necratoid:

You do realize that this thread is discussing Options for the game. You don't need to use any of them, so stop being rude. This forum needs to have a friendly environment, and making ad homenum attacks against other members is not pursuant to that environment.
 
ls612 it's okay. Necratoid has a right to his opinion and to voice it. I didn't take it as a personal attack. Just a misunderstanding of "stances" on this Option.

I've had strong opinions on many subjects and I'm outspoken no doubt to that. So I expect some "flak" from time to time.

But on the subject of City Limits Option, if it can be improved to help the AI then I will have less objections to it being an Option.

@necratoid,
Here's some news you may not have known. At one point when City Limits was being infused into C2C Koshling wanted to make it and several Options no longer Options but default C2C gameplay settings. You Had to use them or Not play C2C. I argued hard and long to keep City Limits as an Option for Game Play Choice. That I argued against it's inclusion into the mod is also true. Because I saw it as a flawed mechanism that would stifle the AI, even as today I still see REV in this light. (If REV was Ever made to be a Mandatory means of play in C2C I would have to move on. Because again I see it as flawed in it's concept and design and it greatly hinders the AI. It may challenge the Player but it Destroys the AI imho.)

So along these lines I take "stands". Sorry my difference of opinion bothers you. But I need to preserve My way of playing as much as "anyone else's" way to play the Mod. Some others have started to see what I've been saying does affect the AI's performance. But for the most part I generally stand alone. And I take the "hits" that comes with the territory. :)

JosEPh
 
Wow! This thread may have jumped the proverbial shark. It seems to have degenerated into another iteration of "Let's get rid of city limits". My original intent of this thread was for people to decide what current options could be eliminated and what options would be truly supported (i.e. - kept in play balance).

An example of eliminating an option would be usable mountains.

An example of the second might be when cities can use a three tile radius. I could be wrong, but I think it would be impossible to play balance the AI for both choices. They might be trained to work effectively with one of the options, but not both.

As far as city limits go, it seems like many people like them (I'm in that camp) , but some really don't like it (Camp Joseph). I personally don't think we should get rid of it as an option either way, but I can tell that it affects play balance differently depending if it is on or not. So in keeping with the original topic, the question is more which city limit option, on or off, should be recommended/supported for optimal play. I vote for having it on as the supported option, because it cuts down on prehistoric/ancient era city spamming, and works very well together with other unique and extremely fun prehistoric/ancient era C2C components, the hunter/subdued animal mechanics - they both work well only when there is plenty of open space, and having the city limits off diminishes the avalable open space. If the AI isn't handling this option well, hopefully it can be tweaked to do better.

If you did go with city limits off as the supported option, I think settlers would need to be a lot more expensive to preserve the hunter/subdued animals stuff.....
 
I vote for having it on as the supported option, because it cuts down on prehistoric/ancient era city spamming
Click to expand...

No it really doesn't. The Civic and Food changes already do what City Limits On does. Thus rendering it Redundant.

the hunter/subdued animal mechanics - they both work well only when there is plenty of open space, and having the city limits off diminishes the avalable open space.
Click to expand...

Again only "Conditionally". If you are playing on a standard or Large Maps with 20+ AI it may "conditionally" affects empty spaces. If you are Playing Huge or larger Maps with less than 20 AI it is unequivocally Not true.

Let's set this straight right now, I did Not say City Limits could Not be an Option. I have repeatedly said it is a Redundant Option and have pointed out why.

We already have Game Mechanics in place that makes it Unnecessary and it's now another piece of Coding that literally wastes space and turn times (sorry Koshling but that's how I see and feel about it). If you all will play a few games with it Off and not have 50 civs on a map you will see exactly what I'm preaching. But you won't cause it's Not your play style and you are the perceived majority.

The whole concept of City Spamming as seen as "bad" is a player play style preference that one group wants to Impose upon another group. In fact the use of the word "spamming" already puts a derogatory and inflammatory slant to what it really is, City eXpansion Tactics. You don't want me or the AI to eXplore and eXpand. You want me and the AI to sit on our hands until we can reach set levels of research to allow us to build a few more cities. All in the name of "to preserve" the map, etc., etc., etc.. This is a 4X game not a 3X. You simply can Not city eXpand during the Preh Era like you all say you can.

At Ancient Era which also starts when you get Sed Life. (which gives settlers) you can then start building more than 1 settler at a time. But it take upwards of 10-19 turns at that time to build a settler even in you Capital city, much less in that size 4 #2 or #3 city. Especially if you are playing on Snail speed. It's slightly better and a bit faster on Epic.

I'm done. :/

JosEPh :(
 
JosEPh_II said:
I'm done. :/

JosEPh :(
Click to expand...

I doubt it :)

I'm not trying to pick a fight - but I have played both ways and in my opinion the city limits significantly slow down city spam and make the hunter/subdued animals work better, period. Maybe it is more pronounced on larger maps, although I'd be surprised - lately I've only played on the biggest map size.

The point I'm trying to make is that all of these options work together and affect play balance differently. I'm suggesting that the people actually working on the mod need to get together and try and focus their efforts instead of trying to be all things to all people, so they don't end up with an unbalanced mess. If I don't get exactly what I want, well so be it. I understand the value of compromise. This is and will still be the best mod ever.
 
JosEPh_II said:
I'll put my head in the noose again.

City Limits Should be Turned Off by Default. In fact it can be deleted. Not just deleted as an Option but totally removed from the mod. Of course there is going to be opposition, But.....

Other players are finally starting to see that the AI does Much better with this Option turned off.


JosEPh
Click to expand...

JosEPh_II said:
Let's set this straight right now, I did Not say City Limits could Not be an Option. I have repeatedly said it is a Redundant Option and have pointed out why.

JosEPh :(
Click to expand...

So what did you say? Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but when you contradict yourself in the same thread....
 
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