TMcC01 - Narcissistic Nehru (C3C, AWM)

[barbslinger]

I started road at turn 7 and I think It would have completed at turn 10. I can't remember but my save would certainly show it. If I did then it was and I'm sorry . What is the shield count going to be with it. Can it be worked into the towns shield/food configuration?

 

[Yom]

If Nehruvia uses it at size 3, it can get 7 spt, enough to get a 20 shield unit in 3 turns, but it will only have 1 surplus food per turn. So until it gets larger, it won't use it.

 

[T_McC]

Ok, I got it. I will not play until tomorrow morning, so if Greebley would like to claim it before then, by all means.

Don't know about the mine, but it isn't a big deal. Nehruvia won't get much larger than size 4 for a little while. Once Indy is set up to produce settlers/workers, then Nehruvia can grow. In the meantime, the mined tile might give us some MM flexibility.

 

[Greebley]

Go ahead and play it TMcC. I don't have the game

I am not at all sure we are 'doomed' even without the GL We need to survive the beginning which is non-trivial, but eventually we will be able to use armies to pillage and slow the AI's to catch up in tech. Pangea does have the advantage that we can (probably) reach all civs with our armies and tear up their lands.

The hardest part without the GL would be when the AI units like knights and we do not. If we can survive that era we have a good chance of winning.

I do agree getting the GLib should be high priority, as we can keep up in tech and avoid having to fight knights with archers and spear.

 

[handy900]

Originally posted by T_McC

Don't know about the mine, but it isn't a big deal.

Agree - the mine is no big deal.
I'm just always looking to learn and couldn't figure that one out.

As always, if you see anything I could have done differently, I always welcome constructive criticism.

We may have a window here to expand a little.

@T_McC - what are you planning for your first chop in Indianapolis?

One last thing - Since we are going to build on top of the incense hill, it pretty much has to be named Greebley Heights.

 

[T_McC]

TMcC01 - Get Confident, Stupid

1750 BC (0)
MM looks good. Turn science down to 90%, lose 1 turn on Math.

1725 BC (1)
Indy: Walls --> worker. We need another worker to get our cities jump-started. I think this will only lose 1 turn of food at Indy. Chinese Archer/Warrior pair step next to Indy. Pop a hut and get 50 bucks. Woo-hoo. Science to 100% again.

1700 BC (2)
Chinese by-pass Indy and head for Nehruvia.

1675 BC (3)
Chinese step onto road between Indy and Nehruvia. Have to attack. Two archer wins later and the threat is removed.

1650 BC (4)
Nehruvia: Spear --> Warrior. (So the settler can time with growth to 4). Indy: Worker --> Granary. Then we get to chopping.

1625 BC (5)
Spot a nice site E of Indy. Wheat/Wines. Should be a good site to establish the front against the Byzantines. Western warrior is exploring North, I don't think there is anyone else there.

1600 BC (6)
Tell the Mayan ambassador to "Talk to the Hand(y)". The coast is close in the East.

1575 BC (7)
First forest chop completes at Indy.

1550 BC (8)
Spot first Jav. Meet Byzantines. Byzantines have The Wheel and Iron Working, 4 cities. Declare War.

1525 BC (9)
Just running away from the Jav.

1500 BC (10)
Either our Continent is a doughnut, or there is a narrow choke SE of Indy. May be able to keep Chinese at bay in the jungles.

Final Notes: No units lost, Settler due in 1. Hopefully that is the last settler we have to build out of Nehruvia, but I'm not sure of that. I doubled our workforce and expanded our enemies list. Math is due in 2 (more with settler pop). I would send the Elite spear and the warrior with the settler. Also, if we can off the reg. Byz warrior in the forest, we can connect the third city through Indy, saving a few worker-turns.

I see another blue border just under the fog in the west. I think that is another capital (or the Mayans are really settling weirdly). So who's up for a four-front war?

Nehru in 1500 BC

 

[T_McC]

A picture of the local situation:

The colors are tough to make out, but that is a Byz warrior NW of Indy, and a conscript Byz warrior NW of Nehruvia.

A picture of the global situation.

I stopped exploring south, in the vain(?) hope that our west was unoccupied. We will probably make contact with the Southern civs via curragh when get the chance to build one.

Slinger is UP!

 

[Yom]

It does look as if there's a choke there, and if we expand in that direction some, we may be able to carry the war with China on our terms.

Also, where should our next city site be? I think we should build a western city first and raze palenque, followed by a city by the wheat and wines in the east. That way, our next city can be supported by Nehruvia, while our 2nd city grows and becomes able to support our 5th city.

 

[T_McC]

It's weird. Most evidence suggests that the blue border in the west is the Mayans, but then they settled 4th-ring to their capital? Must have gotten Palenque from a hut. If that is the case, Palenque should be ultra-corrupt and may be a soft target.

We are not close to being able to go on the offensive yet, but when we can assemble a stack with a couple spears, a couple cats and 4-5 archers we can remove the blight.

However, we should take soft expansion for as long as we can. It is much more shield-efficient to be on defense (especially with cats) than on offense, until we can exploit a resource gap or grow larger than the AI's.

We can dot-map after Slinger's turn, I don't think he can produce another settler on his turns.

 

[handy900]

Originally posted by T_McC

Indy: Walls --> worker. We need another worker to get our cities jump-started...
Indy: Worker --> Granary. Then we get to chopping.

Good calls.

1600 BC (6)
Tell the Mayan ambassador to "Talk to the Hand(y)". The coast is close in the East.

Now that's funny!

However, we should take soft expansion for as long as we can. It is much more shield-efficient to be on defense (especially with cats) than on offense, until we can exploit a resource gap or grow larger than the AI's.

absolutely. Kill ratio.

So who's up for a four-front war?

Welcome to pangea AWM.

 

[Yom]

I agree that we should try and fight a defensive war for a long time and go for high kill ratios. However, Palenque is as vulnerable as it will ever be right now as it is underdefended and far from their capital. If T_McC is right and they popped it out of a hut, they will probably have nothing more than a spearman and the warrior you see outside of it. If we can take it out now, we will greatly weaken the Mayans, and have little fear of an immediate counterattack. If we wait too long to take it out, it will probably be reinforced and have built walls.

 

[barbslinger]

I thought Greebley Heights was next, but now I'm reading East and west. I just arose from my slumber because of GOTM27, friggin tough for Monarch, until 8:30 am. I have some errands to run and football to check out. I will play tonight sometime or tomorrow afternoon.
Just glancing at screenies and see that the wines would be a good site too 3 tiles E of Indy. 2 lux are better than one.

 

[T_McC]

Here is a dot-map of the first ring around Nehruvia.

The northern red dot is the Incense hill. Pro: We get a luxury and city has natural defense bonus. Con: We won't need a luxury until at least one of our cities reaches size 6. Zero two-food tiles, without labor will max out at size 2.

The western red dot is placed in anticipation of razing Palenque. Pro: best food site we have, immediately has access to 3 two-food tiles, so requires less worker attention. Con: Two turns from Nehruvia due to river. Not a great defensive site relative to attack from Palenque.

The black dot is also placed in anticipation of razing Palenque. Pro: Pair of two-food tiles immediately, defensive bonus of hill + across river. Con: To get river, have to miss the fish. Still two turns from Nehruvia. I think this is my favorite site.

The blue dot is for after the western red dot is built, being on a lake and positioned to claim some oases after border expansion. Primary benefit is to shield Nehruvia from attack.

If we found both the western red dot and black dot, Palenque may flip to us. We'd accept it and disband it, but could save us some work.

We should probably settle our first ring before reaching out to the second, hence my lack of enthusiasm regarding the wines site E of Indy. One final point: If we do go south with the settler, move the spear off of the game tile when the workers finish. That should bait the Byz warrior to step out of the forest to get killed.

 

[barbslinger]

Will try to squeeze it in tonight. If not tomorrow for sure. It won't be until 11pm pst if I play tonight so any thoughts would be appreciated. The way I see it I need to get 2 cities down with each city having 3 spears, 4 cats and discover iron working so we can raze palaneque with 5 swords. I'm on it!

 

[barbslinger]

1500BC inherited turn –
Goals – Build some more military, get Greebley Heights down planted. Math, Wheel and on the road to HBR or Lit. See that Granary needs 32 shields can chop in 2 turns in next 4 and can get 12 more by using forest square until then go back to irrigated square for 2 turns with no waste. Nehruvia after settler can get 5S for Spear or archer in 4. Settler heading to Greebley Heights location. Doesn’t look like we need the incense for happiness quite yet so will get a little more infrastructure down in Indy prior to hooking up road.

Hit enter IT – Jav is heading in, 5 turns away. Road completes on irrigation N of Indy.
Nehruva – Settler > Spear for new town addition.

1475BC – turn 1 – Workers jump on forest with spear hopefully enticing warrior to meet his maker on the road from Indy. 2 spears escort settler to incense. Shuffle spear from Indy to Nehru. Mr. T heads S down peninsula. Run TMC runs from jav N. Math in 1 at 20%, +4gpt, 30g in bank. Decide after last look to send archer with settler group.

IT – Math is in. Wheel in 8 at 100%, -6gpt with new town coming online in 2. A Biz warrior comes out of fog and stops on future home of Greebley Heights. Jav goes S.

1450BC - turn 2 – Settler group continues with no fear. Run TMC comes back towards home. Mr. T continues S with trepidation. Looks like it may be 1 tile choke. Workers begin chop in 2.

IT – Warrior on hill joins fortified warrior buddy who has been there for a while. A conscript jumps on hill. Jav goes S looking at Nehru presume while a Mayan warrior comes out of fog from Palaneque.

1425BC- turn 3 – Archer kills conscript and goes elite! The rest of the group give him high 5’s as they climb up the hill to settle town next turn. Mr. T discovers it is a 1 tile choke. Run TMC carefully scampers into forest to try to make it home.

IT – The 2 warriors jump on to road with irrigation, sheesh. I can get one with an archer but the other may pillage unless I sic a spear on him.

1400BC – turn 4 – Whew, the spear wins with2 hp damage. Archer mops up. In celebration of this victory Greebley Heights is founded. Mr. T takes one more tile S because he wanted to send a good picture home. Granary in 2. Wheel in 5.

IT – Jav and warrior move in on Nehru to attack next turn.
Nehru – Spear > Catapult

1375BC – turn 5 – Send ¾ archer back to Nehru. 1 turn away. Run TMC coming home. MR. T inds only marsh and no gold so he turns around. Did I mention the workers are irrigating NE of Indy.

IT – Jav gives me a scare but our courageous Spear finds something within himself to come back after being down to 1 HP. The warrior bites it with out a scratch.
Indy – Granary > Rax in 10

1350BC – turn 6 – Archer gets into Nehru. Run is nearly to Greebley Heights. Workers start road on irrigation.

IT – Biz settles Varna 1 SW of wines. Now the next leader has 2 cities to raze.

1325BC – turn 7 – Run TMC makes it home. 5/5 archer heads to Indy with thoughts of wine on his mind. Mr. T thinks he might have a look too.

IT – Nada

1300BC – turn 8 – Mr. T don’t like it that he can’t see into Varna from the hill. Can they see him? Spear fortifies in forest E of Indy for now as a scout and workers go to chop forest for walls. Negate that. Indy grows in 1! Wheel in 1 at +5gpt, 12 in the bank. Just noticed Greebley has a slight corruption problem. The town that is. Go figure.

IT – Wheel is in and we have horses 3 tiles away NE of the big mountain W of Nehru. Since I don’t think we’ll be getting there in the next few turns I set research to Iron in 9 but deficit will slow that down.
Nehru – Cat > Spear

1275BC – turn 9 – Mr. T has a closer look and finds a 3hp warrior in there. Archer heads out with 90% chance on combat calc to sack Varna. I’d really like to give Mr. T a shot at 37%.

IT – Nada

1250 – turn 10 - Archer is 2 tiles from Varna with spear. Mr. T slides over to join the boys in the carnage.

The SAVE

 

[Yom]

Got it. Will be playing soon.

 

[Yom]

1250 B.C.(0) - Change nothing

IBT - Forest Chop completes, sending its shields to Greebley Heights, allowing it to complete its walls with no waste.

1225 B.C. (1) - Greebley Heights: Walls -> Catapult
Iron Working research lowered to 90%, still in 7.

IBT - Indianapolis grows to size 4

1200 B.C. (2) - Attack Varna with Elite Archer, wins flawlessly, but one conscript remains. Rather than attack with Mr. T, I wait to attack with the Elite archer again next turn.
Increase lux tax to 10% until road to Greebley finishes. Lower research to 80%, IW still in 6.

IBT - Road to Greebley completes

1175 B.C. (3) - Attack on Varna again with the elite archer. Barely defeats the conscript warrior (went down to 1 hp) and autorazes Varna, netting us 1 gold.
Lux tax -> 0%, Research to 70% (IW in 6, not 5). No longer losing money. Treasury is now 4 Gold and +0 gpt.
Nehruvia: Spearman -> Archer

IBT - Nothing

1150 B.C. (4) - Indianapolis: Barracks -> Settler

IBT - Mayan Warrior appears from the Fog in the West, near Yaxchilan.

1125 B.C. (5) - Treasury at 2 gold and losing 2 per turn, IW in 5. Lower research rate to 60% & we're still getting IW in 5 with 0 gpt.

IBT - Warrior moves to mountain outside of Nehruvia's borders.

1100 B.C. (6) Indianapolis grows, MM to get settler and growth in 3 at expense of Greebley's growth (but speeds up its catapult).

IBT - Warrior fortifies on Mountain

1075 B.C. (7) - Nehruvia: Archer -> Archer Research back up to 70%, IW in 2 at -1 per turn and 4 gold.

IBT - Nothing

1050 B.C. (8) - Nothing

IBT - IW comes in, research set to Writing in 29 at +2gpt

1025 B.C. (9) - Greebley heights completes catapult, set to temple (Iron on hill outside of greebley's borders, vetoable). Indianapolis Settler -> Curragh (vetoable)

Decide to send the settler near Varna's ruins as we can't take out Palenque yet.

IBT - Nothing

1000 B.C. (10) - Research increased to 50%, Writing in 18 at 0 gpt

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/T_McC01_1000_BC_City_pic.jpg

Notes for next player:

We may want to build a couple more workers before another settler at Indy so as to hook up the iron after Greebley's border expansion. As for our next city, 1 tiles NW of Varna's ruins seem like the best location to me. Also, you could veto Greebley's temple and build a city near the iron in the hills to bring in the Iron quicker.

Here are a couple more pictures:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/T_McC01_1000_BC_Army_pic.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/T_McC01_1000_BC_Army2_pic.jpg


And the Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/T_McC01_1000_BC.SAV

EDIT: How do I get the urls to the pictures to show up as pictures and not just links?

 

[T_McC]

Good turns!

@Yom: To answer one of your questions, use the IMG button on the reply page rather than the http:// button. Then this will happen ...

@Handy - Who is UP! There is a MM opportunity in Indy. Growth can be obtained in 3 turns (2 from save point) by using a 3-3-4 food surplus on consecutive turns. It should be possible to build the Curragh and grow on the same turn. I like the idea of the Curragh, as the more people we meet the cheaper techs should become.

I think our cities will be happy until size 6, with 2 MP and the Incense. If we can hook up the wines we won't have to run a lux tax for a long time.

The proposed city sites are OK, although we should be trying to obtain sites 1st ring to Nehruvia before going too wild with the 2nd ring sites. The southern red dot in the picture is a no-brainer, as that city can easily grow and support itself. Note: In Despotism a plains/wines tile does not benefit from irrigation, it should be treated as a BG.

With the way our cities are laid out, I actually believe that the GLib will have to be built in Greebley Heights. With a Temple it can access a number of hills/forests, plus work a few plains. Should be possible to get 6-7 shields per turn out of it. Not great, but we really don't have any other options. If this is the plan, we may need to feed it population from Indy, or build a granary. There are plenty of forests around to assist with the buildings. This would definitely be a gamble, albeit a small one as the AI don't seem to prioritize Lit.

We do need more workers. I think that with another irrigation we can get Indy into a comfortable cycle of military-worker in 5 turns (Indy needs 7 uncorrupted shields to do this). We can't do that often relative to settler production, so the wheat/wines city will have to pitch in with workers. We can also look for opportunities to peel off a worker from Nehruvia when growth will require it to work a 1-food tile.

The biggest threat right now are the Mayans. The Chinese have only as many cities as us, and are either fighting someone else or are trapped in the jungle. The Byzantines have good territory, but effectively no UU, and we have already clipped their growth a little. Depending on the Iron distribution (we have the only visible Iron sources) we should be able to fight a defensive war against them. The Mayans already have 6 cities and a good Ancient Age UU. I think our priority should be to expand towards them, and possibly clip their growth a little.

The other good news: Since we are the Indians, we have Iron and Horses within our 1st ring. UU doesn't need them, so of course they are easily accessed.

 

[Yom]

The Northern City was a possible alternative to the temple in Greebley so as to get the iron connected faster. We can't expand that much towards the Mayans without first razing Palenque, so hooking up that Iron will be a high priority. We may want to found a city near the horses soon too and hook those up so that we can build horseman which will later upgrade to our UU. The Mayans are going to be our biggest threat for a long time, so we may want to raze Palenque and Yaxchilan sooner rather than later.

One more question: Does our tactlessness prevent us from even speaking to their envoys (which would prevent us from seeing what they've researched.)?

 

[T_McC]

Originally posted by Yom
The Northern City was a possible alternative to the temple in Greebley so as to get the iron connected faster.

Certainly. But we may be able to complete the Temple before being able to found the city (We could even whip it when we get down to only needing 20 shields, I think that would be in 4 turns). So agreed on the Temple build, and agreed on the northern red dot. Only raising the issue that we should found the most-probably productive cities first.

Originally posted by Yom
We can't expand that much towards the Mayans without first razing Palenque, so hooking up that Iron will be a high priority.

Here we disagree. I was thinking of founding a city as a "forward-base" to stage the attack on Palenque. It is extremely unlikely that city 1st ring to our capital would flip away, so the presence of Palenque is merely an annoyance. I want the Mayans to build offensive units out of Palenque to attack a new city, they'll whip Palenque down to 1 and leave it with minimal defenses. Founding a city with 1st ring overlap on a hill or across the river from Palenque should really tempt the Mayans to attack. With a few catapults, we'd be flushing their production down the drain. Having said that, the plan works a lot better if we have swords to attack with.

Originally posted by Yom One more question: Does our tactlessness prevent us from even speaking to their envoys (which would prevent us from seeing what they've researched.)?

I interpret F4-peeking as "spying", so I think it should be allowed. I just think the game should allow "investigative espionage" from the beginning. Save the stealing and propoganda for the Industrial age, but I suspect spying is the 2nd oldest profession.