TMcC01 - Narcissistic Nehru (C3C, AWM)

[barbslinger]

Feel for you on that one. Will do my best to get back on track. The pillaging of Thebes should help immensely but we will have to get through Egypts current build cycle before we see only archers again. Have you found the Egyptian iron yet? Need to see how fast we can turn around the Thebes disconnect-Thebes iron-Mayan iron-Chichen Itza cycle of pillaging. Hopefully they are all kinda close and once we can free a second army there things will improve lots. Why the pentagon in T'ville? That seems pretty remote for such an important building for us.
BTW, I am right in the middle of GOTM24 Redux (3rd turn tonight) but it is around an hour per turn with over 200 units and 100 cities. Hope to finish that tomorrow and do this game Friday night or Sat afternoon more likely.

 

[Greebley]

Ouch. I knew MDI's were going to hit us, but it happened much sooner than I thought. The AI is better at grouping units in conquests as well, which does make things harder.

I am worried with every civ sending units at us that we will be stuck at this size until we get hit by Cavalry and collapse.

Remember that disconnecting the capitol will not stop all builds of the MDI. Any city still connected to iron will be building them. Cutting their empire in two might be a good idea (or finding the all the iron).

I was thinking about what it would take to grab the GLib for a turn, but it is in the worst possible city (Thebes). It would probably be guarded by muskets when we got there and be impossible to take out, even if we could afford sending our two armies out after it.

It is sad because we were just getting ready to make a strike to grow in size. This is definitely a difficult variant and our start was not the best. It is also difficult when you can be hit from so many sides including the sea. The AI in conquests is much better at assaults by boat. I tried an AWE game and the AI are landing a goodly number of troops after I blocked the land route.

I think we should go for pikes (feudalism) when after construction. That would help things.

 

[T_McC]

To answer a couple of questions:

T-Ville built the Pentagon because it was close by to the leader. And there were no real attacks there this round. The point of interest in the west is Deerberg (or whatever I called it).

It will not be possible for one army to cover Thebes and the Mayan territory. They are too far apart, and I think we need full-time coverage of Egypt.

My turns weren't a disaster, but they were a setback. We can still get to the point where we would have been if Egypt hadn't showed, but it's going to take about 30 turns, and time is not something we have a lot of. The biggest problem we face is that on my turns, I had to actively defend every city except Nehruvia at some point. It was impossible for me to keep a single-front focus to go on offense. Other than the Egyptian MDI's we were not seriously threatened, but the volume of enemy troops kept our forces fully occupied.

I'm not sure whether the AI is better at keeping units together, or just got lucky in this case. The 9 MDI that formed the attack on Equinia came in two separate stacks, and happened to each hit the city on the same turn. If they had been one turn apart, we would have easily held the city, as every attacking MDI would then have been subject to 3 cat shots. I think most of the units would have had to retreat before attacking. And that little piece of bad luck is what caused most of the problems on my turn.

It seems that of the restrictions we placed ourselves under, the "take the first start" was the most serious. I have no question we would have won this game in a blowout if we had gotten the Byzantine start position, as our early opponents would have been the jungle-clogged Chinese and someone having to hack their way out of the plains. Having the most-dangerous Ancient Age civ in the game be our western neighbor (and meeting them within 10 turns) didn't make things any easier. If that had been, say, the Americans, we could have pushed East much sooner and grabbed some of the more fertile territory early, without having to commit so much to defense in the West. [I think the strategy would have been pillage the Iron for the Americans, and scoff at their archers. The first "offensive" army would then have gone east to neuter the Byzantines.]

 

[Greebley]

I think we would have also benefited by not exploring agressively. We could have had a good number of turns without the Americans, French and Egyptians. I think our first contact with those civs should have been our pillaging army. With those extrat turns, I think we would have had a better opportunity to expand before we had the large number of troops coming at us.

I have heard that it is better to not explore in AW, and looking at this game, it seems to be true. How much it would of helped I do not know. If we do lose and try again, I would like to try not sending out a boat at all. The pillaging forces can do the contacting.

 

[T_McC]

The only civ we could have avoided were the Egyptians. The Americans and French built cities on our southern peninsula, and the Aztecs built in our North, so even without our exploring they would have found us. I'm not sure when the American troops started to arrive, but the Aztecs and French are barely in this game. Yeah, we lost a city to the Aztecs, but that was only because of the Egyptians the turn before.

So, if we didn't build the boats, we would be further behind in technology, since we would be researching some techs at maybe 6th instead of 8th. Maybe one tech behind where we currently are. We would have made contact with Egypt about 10-12 turns before those MDI showed up, which is a little less than the transit time for the units. So we're back to "What would Egypt be doing if they didn't know us?" They seem to still be involved in (and winning) multiple wars, so would that change?

This is a lousy game to consider this question, as even with just contacting our neighbors we had our hands full. I think the Americans were only providing nuisance troops until the last 20-30 turns, and the French, Aztecs, and Egyptians were basically MIA, so we had plenty of time to fight just our neighbors. It was a cruel coincidence that only by the time the Americans and Egyptians started to show in force were we sufficiently strong to go on the offensive against our neighbors.

When you have a "corner start", this is a more relevant question, as in the extreme you have the possibility of fighting one war at a time (you only have one neighbor, and no one else knows you). When you start in the middle, you get 3-4 wars right off the bat.

So I'm not at all convinced delaying contact would have been very profitable (or even all that possible) [here, the food-poor start rears its ugly head. If we had good land to produce settlers, maybe the Americans and French don't send their settlers to lands they "know" are available.]. But I am perfectly willing to try the opposite tact in the next game. I really don't know what the answer is.

 

[Greebley]

I guess I would have to go back and check, but I thought we met the Americans by boat a goodly number of turns before they settled to the south. Also I think Egypt is strong because we pulled the other civs units away, but not theirs including France.

If we had 3-4 more cities, that would easily make up the research speed lost due to knowing less civs - Each civ is at least +3 gpt and +5 gpt in despotism (4 for unit support + 1 as min commerce).

I guess I feel the difference in research rate is minor if we can have a bigger empire. I feel we would have more cities (the entire SW peninsula for example would be ours at a minimum, IMO). It is even possible we would further ahead in research if we hadn't explored due to our bigger size. I just don't know. It is very hard to judge something like that. My gut feeling is that the reason we haven't expanded yet is we are fighting too many civs at once. Putting off fighting a civ for as long as possible seems to me to be the best way to expand, and expansion is key.

 

[barbslinger]

Though we are down we may still have a shot at this. Our determination, diligent mm'ing and using our troops in kill zones when possible can still prevail. I have not looked at the save but I am hoping to found cities down south, retake OUR cities and have 16 cities and a new army to pillage with. If we get one more amry we will probably win once we cripple thier cores. Must concentrate on Thebes, thier iron hopefully on a mountain that takes lots of worker turn to reconnect and Maya iron. We may still be ablr to advance vs. Byz in a while. Don't get down. One lousy AI gangrush probably happened after they concluded a war.
BTW, how many MDI are still prowling? They may be heading towards our SW flank and that is why I questioned the pentagon location.

 

[Greebley]

I think the MDI started toward us when we contacted them and declared war. As you say a one time rush.

Gettting a fourth army is a very good goal. I agree we need as many pillagers as we can get. I feel if we don't slow the flow of troops and enemy research, we are going to have serious problems.

 

[Yom]

IMHO, the way to secure our west is offensive defense. We cannot defend our cities with 2 defense units against 4 attack MDI's or knights, but we can kill their MDI's (and even knights with cat's and some luck) pretty easily if we have enough swordsmen and an army or two attacking offensive Egyptian troops.

As to the West, we need to get that Iron disconnected now. We can hold off the Egyptian MDI's, but we can't defend against both them and the Byzantines. Hopefully, (haven't looked at the save, so don't know where the armies are.) we can get the sword armies in the area quickly (maybe after retaking the delhi) to dispose of the offending egyptian MDI's.

 

[Yom]

@barbslinger: Have you started playing your turns yet? I don't mean to rush you, but I'm getting curious as to how things are going.

 

[barbslinger]

Wish me luck. It looks pretty thin in there. Are we playing in 1.15?

 

[Yom]

Yes, we're playing on 1.15. Good luck on your turns.

 

[barbslinger]

Nehru – 750AD-850AD

750 BC – See that we are strong to everyone except America (avg) and Egypt (weak)L. Where’s that iron. Do a SHFT-CNTRL-M to make sure its not under an Egyptian city. Whew, it’s not. That would have sucked. Looks like we have covered most Egyptian lands except Texcoco and the next city down from Thebes. Thebes will be cut off in 2 turns. We have 12 cities. The others: Egypt, 14; China, 11; Byz, 11; Maya, 9; America, 8;Axtecs, 6 and Joanie is down to 3. Kill an Archer that was threatening a sword near SugarP. Moved a sword/spear to the gas station. Sent a horse to pair with sword to (fingers crossed) raze Naissus. MM Indy and GH to get their units in 1 less turn. Swap tiles between Nehru and 7-11 to get barracks from 17 to 6.

Hit enter – IT – A brave spear in 7-11 takes on a 5hp AC relines and then comes back to win. My sword spear pairing loses the spear and then the sword beats an MDI. No attacks at Deerburg. Their going around to less defended core cities.
Nehru –Spear > Spear

760AD- turn 1 – Shuffle spears around. Bombard everywhere and then hit the spear SE of 7-eleven who snuck in. Azbar joins emerges. No army until we get 4 more cities so I rush a market in Nehru with him. That will give us 8gpt. China has swords near Indy. A 5rp sword takes down a 3hp sword there. If they have swords, Riders are not far behind. That Iron on the island is probably hooked up. I use the sword that took out the Egypt MDI on defense to kill the MDI that got our sword and SINGH appears. I’m putting the FP in Yom to decrease corruption in the other cities. Holding on spear due next turn however. Found the Egyptian iron near Elephantine. Couple turns from getting it though. Attack on Naissus leaves it with an archer defending.

IT – The sword buys it from an MDI. No other attacks but 3 China swords are coming up. China dropped 2 spears off on road connecting Vishnu. I ain’t got time for them. Shoot!
Nehru – Market > Spear
Yom – Spear – FP

770AD – turn 2 -FP next turn in Yom. Killed 2 archers out of St. Louis. Razed Naissus capturing 3 workers. See if I can get them back through mountains. A horse goes elite in Deerburg killing a jav. Egypt iron is cut now because I’m standing on the road to it. Disconnecting next turn. Killed a spear standing on the Delhi’s wine with the army. Moved Indys tiles to get sword this turn losing 1 food in box.

IT – AC attacks spear on Nehru hill I’m mining and our spear retreats him while redlining. Whew! The Egyptians are heading home? The two China spears run up towards SugarP without pillaging. I think they want the sugar mine.
Indy – sword > Spear
GH - Spear > cat
Sugar – Sword > Spear
Yom – FP – sword
Vishnu – Settler > brax

780AD – turn 3 – Sugars new sword takes out 1 spear. I kill an archer near the gas station and cover him. A vet sword finishes off the AC losing 2 but going elite. He gets covered. Deerburg army does not do a great job taking down an MDI, 9/13 left. The elite horse has crappy odds. There is one archer between the 3 workers, horse and a sword from getting back to kill them off at the Dehli. BTW, construction in 6 at 10g-1gpt. China also has a settle pair looking to grab the now free iron.

IT – The 4 MDI’s from Cleo come back out of the fog towards Equine. Shoot, thought they were heading home.

790AD – turn 4- In Deerburg our E horse barely gets by a R sword. It took 2 minutes for me to decide whether or not to attack at 67% odds. We won the coin toss. Iron is now completely off for Cleo. Heading further S so see about Abe’s Iron. 2 mines complete for increased production. I swap tiles around to get things sooner. Moving the troops back from their coverages near the gas station. Man I want those back. I also have 3 settlers now. I’m thinking of trying to go north of Irontown for the spices, pretty far away though. Another is going south for furs. The other would be great near Chengdu but getting through the swords will be tough. My St. Louis envoy lost an archer and the sword beat a spear. Regrouping. Swapped GH to spear from Cat for possible envoy to spices.

IT – The MDI’s go into Equine and they must have had 2 still in there because they came out and lost to our spear and then beat the spear. Will be able to get the sword home though. The China spear is trying for workers.
Dehli – Walls > Spear
IronT – Spear > Cat
7-eleven – Brax > Sword
America starts Bachs

800AD – turn 5 – Deerburg army kills an MDI. I use the Dehlis army to take down a pike! Now decisions a 2/4 horse to attack a 3/3 horse 55% and be able to retreat to Dehli or use the 4/5 sword. The horse wins losing 1hp and everyone is home. Workers disbanding next turn. I’m chasing a pike/settler pair near Dirty dozen too. I had been bombing it and it is 1hp. Was finally able to get a sword on him.

IT – We beat a jav in Deerburg. China looks to be sending another landing party. Others move in towards us.
Indy – Spear > sword.
French building SZ.

810AD – turn 6 – Slaughter workers at the Dehli. Look out for the lunch special. Kill the pike and get 2 workers to kill at the Dirty Dozen. Kill a spear on our irrigation N of Nehru with E sword and cover. A jav in Deerburg dies. Army didn’t fair well again. A 4/5 AC will attack Deerburg next turn. Yom’s grew and requires a scientist. I swap to temple in 2.

IT- A spear barely beats a spear at the dehli. The sword that beat the MDI almost beats a horse but falls. China drops off a spear and a sword, Vishnu may fall. Calc shows 50% we have a 3/5 sword against a spear. Then again we are 65% against the sword in town. The AC runs off to join a ¾ MDI. Spear may pillage.
Nehrvia – SW>SW
Sugar P – SP > SW
T’ville and Yoms expands

820AD – turn 7 – Kill the slaves at Dirty Dozen. Shuffle troops sending 3 swords to the gas station under spear cover. Kill an archer and horse at the Dehli. Lose 5-0 with E horse at Deerburg against a 2/3 jav.

IT – Egypt sends 3 MDI out of Equina towards 7-11. Our Dehli army kills 2 horse.
We are Middle ages. Set for Feudal in 18L
GH – SP > SP
Yom – Temple > SW

830AD –turn 8 – At Dirty D I kill an archer with sword and cover. Another sword is moving in to help take St. Louis too. There is an archer that can attack my spear though. The gas station returns to our hands winning with 2 swords. Move a spear in to secure. Another on the way. E Sword beat a R sword at Indy. At the dehli our E horse beats an archer and TILAK comes forth. What to do with him? A temple somewhere would be nice. Especially 7-11 or the gas station. We may induce Equine to flip. I’ll try to get him back to capital 1st. Well here goes at 7-11. We’re favored but we’ll see. Sugar P was ready to riot. A scientist gets Feudal down to 15.

IT – 7-11 stands against 2 MDI attacks. The other was heading to the gas station as were a few other units.
Deerburg – Walls > Rax

840AD – turn 9 – Our E SW kills an MDI at the gas station. Our cow is now irrigated and roaded. Kill an injured sword in the forest and will try to road to the Dehli next. Pillaging Washington. Our E sword can’t beat a R spear standing on the Supar P mine. Not good. Looks like a spear and a cat will get into Deerburg. Yom’s now wants to riot even with a temple? Move some other towns to scientist without hurting build times. Tilak is in Indy. Slingers army beats an MDI.

IT – Only attacks were on Iron town by 2 archers. We promoted a spear and then he nearly lost.
Nehru – SW > Temple for Equine pressure. Vetoable.
Indy – SW > SP
Egypt completes Sistene Chapel

850AD – turn 10 – While pillaging Washington I find their iron. St. Louis falls. Settler in tow to found soon. That’s it. Just realized 7-11 only has 2 spears in it. I would get another one there proto.

SAVE 850

 

[Yom]

I see it, will play tomorrow.

 

[T_McC]

Good set of turns. Maybe we are nearing the end of the Egyptian MDI storm.

For Yom: Note that two workers are hiding/fortified in Deerburg. If we can road the forest tile SE of the city, the Army can defend multiple cities. Or even better, we can get more non-Army units there and free up the army to re-take Equinia. Slinger left you with four workers to hack down the forest E of Indy, and then connect the Deli back to our empire. With the chop Indy can complete a spear on your first turn. Then you might want to use the leader to rush a market in Indy. We have 13 cities, and I think we can get another leader before we found three more (for a fourth army).

Also recall we have the Pentagon active, so if we start to "get ahead" on units (build 'em faster than we can lose 'em), the sword armies can include a 4th. Would be very useful against Pike defenders.

We have a settler on the ruins of the American city. I would go ahead and build one square SE (on the BG), or maybe better, two squares SE (on the Hill). The terrain on the peninsula is laid out in a really weird fashion, as it is not possible to get all the whales and the banana. I like re-founding a city on the ruins of Buffalo, when it comes to that.

MM alert on Indy, you can configure it to grow next turn, without deviating from 10 spt.

I would love to see Chalcedon burn and a replacement founded 1 SE (Hill, and across river). That would free us up to start to hack down that forest and get some more food/commerce in our core.

If/when you move units to 7-Eleven in anticipation of MDI attacks, be careful not to expose the units in transit. Actually, on second thought it isn't possible to expose them due to the river. (It would really help us to get Engineering, these rivers are killing our troop movement).

It seems we are getting closer to the point where we can form a Monarchy. We'll have three cities over size 7 by the end of Yom's turns, as Indy and the Folly will grow there. If we get another leader real soon, might be worth thinking about an Aqueduct at Sugar Plantation, as when it gets MP/more lux it too can grow to 7. We could also plant/re-capture 3-4 cities fairly soon.

Getting the Wines (or furs) online would be real nice, as the lux tax is costing us 8 gpt (or 4 turns on Feudalism).

 

[Greebley]

I am back from Arisia. Looks like we are still in the running with the FP and everything. That is good

A monarchy would be nice because we can grow faster.

 

[T_McC]

Since Yom hasn't played yet ... (or has he?)

One minor change to my thoughts two post previous. If Indy builds a Spear or Cat, it would waste the shields from a forest chop. So if you want to chop the forest first thing, set Indy to a Sword. That will complete on your 2nd turn.

This game is rather odd. It's only 10 turns since I handed off, but I am much more optimistic now than I was before. We are not that far away from having a set of cities that won't have to be actively defended every turn, and that should be our trigger to revolt to Monarchy. I also think we are the 3rd largest civ in the game, so we should start to see the benefits of superior city management by the human team. rolleyes: As opposed to ... ? )

Also find it ironic that after Slinger suggested an FP in Yom's Folly, and I posted why that was a bad idea, and Slinger posted that he agreed with my viewpoint, and then he did it anyway. And I think he did the right thing!

(Ahh, the story of my life: It seemed like a good idea at the time ... )

 

[handy900]

Back from a 4 day weekend and we are still alive .

Looks like Yom is up before me. Good turns BS, errr - I mean Barbslinger

 

[T_McC]

Yom is fast approaching the 48 hour limit for playing. If he doesn't post by 20-Jan at 6 PM EST, consider him skipped, and Handy may claim the game.

 

[barbslinger]

Seeing the Chinese swords and knowing they are probably close and running to Chivalry scares me. That island iron is kicked in now and we have no way to destroy the harbor or pillage it. We ahve to take thier continental cities and then beware of ship landings. I think we have a chance with the rest of the civs and though we will still get quite a few turns of Egypt/American iron units it should trickle off soon and then we can make headway.
I was looking at the calc and once we get pikes things will relax on defense. As long as we keep them off of iron we should be able to make some huge strides at that point against the continent and taking our licks against Riders.
Again remember to get a defender to 7-11 before hitting enter. I had forgotten about the 4 MDI I saw going into Equina and they will probably go after a town with only 3 spears. I may have been too agressive with southern action.
The next 10-20 turns will hopefully get us to Monarchy to stay and securing the southern lands and getting them up to speed. Perhaps even merge a worker or two if we can pop a few from Indy/Nehru/Yom. It will speed the growth curve in them to get them closer to military production.
I still have my fingers crossed but again, CHINESE RIDERS!!