TMIT with Japan in Civ5

[Semmel]

First things first: As many of know, TMIT is maybe the only good player of Civ, who publishes letsplays and uploads them to youtube youtube link Thank you at this point. I dont have nor do I want a youtube account, still I like to discuss this game and the tactics we see in it.

First thing I noticed, placed the city first and than took the social policy. As my understanding is, the SP gets more expensive the more cities you have. If you bank up culture, wouldn't it be more effective to take the SP first? Or does the number of cities determine how much culture you need until you get the next SP being available and that number doesnt change once you reached the level of culture?

Second, I noticed the usage of promotions. I can see that instant heal is pretty powerful. But especially with japan and bushido, where you inflict the same amount of damage, no matter how damaged your own unit is, instant heal is not that strong. I would at lest use one unit for healing, and use other promotions to deal more damage on flatland/rough land and so on. I am not sure which is more effective, maybe someone can share his thoughts? Also.. healing first and than attack is the wrong order in my opinion. If you dont die with an attack, woulndt it be more effective to do it the other way around?

Also.. why use horsemen? Why not Samurai? After all, they are the unique unit of the Japanese.. I know, they are in a different tech tree arc, but they are not so far in as it wouldnt be useful to get them.

 

[Duo]

Your HP still decreases so you are still pretty likely to die with low HP, even if you have bushido, you'll just do more damage before you kick the bucket. I think that's how it works anyways.

I think horsemen cost less to make and to research to. Even if they took the same time to research and make, they are much faster, you can blitz an empire with horses by the time all your samurai reach it's borders, and reinforcements don't take an age to turn up. Horses are just way too awesome.

 

[AriochIV]

...Nobunaga.

 

[Lyoncet]

...Nobunaga.

Or actually, Oda if you want to be picky (saying Japan is lead by Nobunaga is like saying America is lead by George).

Thanks for pointing out there's a new TMIT! I thought it would be a little early after his Washington game for a new Civ V, so I hadn't checked in a while.

As for your questions, yeah horsemen are so absurdly good against the AI, easy to tech to, and easy to get resources for that you'll almost always want them if you aren't purposefully gimping yourself. Samurai are very good as well (as are the Longswordsmen they replace), but that's no reason to limit yourself so dreadfully in the early game. Plus you can get Animal Husbandry right off the bat to find good locations to settle for horse, and horse is more plentiful than iron by a lot, and horses are way better than swordsmen all around, so it makes plenty of sense to base your early game off them even if you're going to want samurai later on. Later, samurai and knights both certainly have a place in an army, although depending on how much iron you have you may rather build trebuchets than too many samurai.

And Duo's right about HP. Your units will still fight as if they had full strength, but that doesn't mean they effectively have full HP. A unit with 2 HP will still die from 2 HP of damage; the attacker will just take more damage dealing that 2 than if the unit didn't have Bushido.

 

[binjack]

Actually I believe samurai is the replacement for the longsword. Horses are actually better at staying alive and getting to the fight faster than non mounted units. They can also hit then fall back away from getting countered if used correctly.

 

[E66man]

First things first: As many of know, TMIT is maybe the only good player of Civ

I'm genuinely curious as to what the basis for this statement is. And I don't want to imply any insult to TMIT if they really are the only good player.

 

[lymond]

I'm genuinely curious as to what the basis for this statement is. And I don't want to imply any insult to TMIT if they really are the only good player.

Assumption is that this statement was made in context to the full sentence not just the clause. In other words, TMIT is the only good player that posts "let's plays" of CIV.

Anyone know why TMIT graphics look so odd? Is it lower settings?

 

[binjack]

Yeah he has it like on the lowest settings, but for some reason he has the fog turned way up, I guess he can't handle both turned up and have is recording work.

 

[aimlessgun]

Promotions: Probably because he's making a video and doesn't want to take up too much time, he makes combat decisions very quickly, leading to some reckless moves, so he has to pop instant heals to recover Instant heal is very good but in the long run it is better to avoid it as much as possible.

And yes, if you're not going to die in an attack, heal as late as possible. But the stats the game gives you for damage taken is just an estimate, it can fluctuate a lot and you don't want to take risks.

Yes he should have taken the policy before settling. For the 1st policy it matters very little though (what like 10-15 culture or something?)

Why not Samurai? You have to sort of focus on an Iron beeline for Samurai, which wasn't where he wanted to go with techs, because if you do that you're sort of committed to warmongering with them. Horses are so powerful and come at a much lower tech cost.

 

[Roxlimn]

aimlessgun:

Yeah, but then you're rampaging through the Civs with Horsemen. Again. And as Japan, too. Ick.

I like winning as much as the next guy, but if every win was like that, I'd be refunding my Civ V copy, too. There's something very satisfying about using Samurai to win wars with Japan. It's probably very unoptimized to do that, but I would prefer to do it that way, anyway.

 

[qyll]

First thing I noticed, placed the city first and than took the social policy. As my understanding is, the SP gets more expensive the more cities you have. If you bank up culture, wouldn't it be more effective to take the SP first? Or does the number of cities determine how much culture you need until you get the next SP being available and that number doesnt change once you reached the level of culture?

Yes, more cities = more culture cost. Remember that TMIT played fast Civ IV games, so he might overlook some things.

Second, I noticed the usage of promotions. I can see that instant heal is pretty powerful. But especially with japan and bushido, where you inflict the same amount of damage, no matter how damaged your own unit is, instant heal is not that strong. I would at lest use one unit for healing, and use other promotions to deal more damage on flatland/rough land and so on. I am not sure which is more effective, maybe someone can share his thoughts? Also.. healing first and than attack is the wrong order in my opinion. If you dont die with an attack, woulndt it be more effective to do it the other way around?

That's up to your style of play I suppose. I prefer to invest in a couple of units with many promotions, which means I go down the Honor tree almost everytime. I can count on my finger how many times I've used instant heal in all of my games. TMIT went down Piety instead of Honor, which gives him an excuse to take fewer promotions. Yes, healing after attacking is a good idea as long as you don't die (or if you have march) especially if you're Japan.

Also.. why use horsemen? Why not Samurai? After all, they are the unique unit of the Japanese.. I know, they are in a different tech tree arc, but they are not so far in as it wouldnt be useful to get them.

Because horsemen have more movement, come earlier, and can move after they attack. Honestly, horseback riding is the only military tech you'll need for the first third of the game. At least until lancers come out.

 

[aimlessgun]

aimlessgun:

Yeah, but then you're rampaging through the Civs with Horsemen. Again. And as Japan, too. Ick.

I like winning as much as the next guy, but if every win was like that, I'd be refunding my Civ V copy, too. There's something very satisfying about using Samurai to win wars with Japan. It's probably very unoptimized to do that, but I would prefer to do it that way, anyway.

Oh for sure, if I ever play Japan I'm going for Samurai. Very high cool factor.
I'm actually a huge fan of Longswords, but you seriously have to beeline them because melee units need a tech advantage to keep down on losses on offense (horses just run away sigh).

 

[malitano]

I am fan of horsemen -> knights as japan. After knights I usually mass produce obsolete samurai (because by now the AI has riflemen) and retire the knights until I research rifling and upgrade all my obsolete samurai. while I am doing this I may try to get military science so I can squeeze a little more use out of cavalry.

I have only once been able to wage war with samurai and it is funner but iron is rare . I can only do this if my capital or city #2 is next to iron so i can go swordmen -> samurai instead. it is also a gamble to go for iron working instead of horseback riding first. if you don't see iron then you just wasted 20 turns but atleast you can make the heroic epic, switch to horse back riding and pump out heroic horsemen.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yes, more cities = more culture cost. Remember that TMIT played fast Civ IV games, so he might overlook some things.

More like he DEFINITELY overlooks things . But, my viewers rarely miss such things .

That's up to your style of play I suppose. I prefer to invest in a couple of units with many promotions, which means I go down the Honor tree almost everytime. I can count on my finger how many times I've used instant heal in all of my games. TMIT went down Piety instead of Honor, which gives him an excuse to take fewer promotions. Yes, healing after attacking is a good idea as long as you don't die (or if you have march) especially if you're Japan.

Attack then heal would have been better if I survived because of bushido, but often you want to do more damage THIS turn, and without the Japanese UA a full HP unit will do more (In that sense, I seriously flubbed my war strategy a bit).

As for setting up promotions, I had settled on a "rush then done" strategy because I had a TON of land available and wanted to press/kill my target sooner so I could get to work spamming cities.

Horsemen are so strong and come so early that they're seriously a top unit right now. Samurai have more cool/fun factor, but you're waiting tons of turns for them; I didn't see much point to that here.

And yes, playing at high speeds while talking takes its toll, even more so in civ V, where compared to civ IV I've played no where NEAR the # of games.

Edit: I'm waiting to announce the LP on the forum until I get all the parts uploaded + playlisted in proper order ----> internet connectivity issues and youtube's "processing hell" have combined to force me to upload a # of them out of order.

Edit 2: One more thing. There *are* other players on youtube with civ V. Most of them are playing a bit lower difficulty, but nothing too terrible. Commentary quality varies from person to person, and even in perception of the viewer. Unlike civ IV where I was pretty much the only one doing videos on high levels, I'm expecting some real competition in V. If you like civ V LPs, check some of the other guys out, too (though of course I intend to keep and grow my viewer base ).

 

[Semmel]

Dont worry, I guess, nobody is running away from your videos because there are other Lets plays as well. ;-)

Ok, I see, horses are way too powerful. Maybe they should get combet penelty for fighting in rough terrain rather than in flat. After all, horses are not very good in the wood. That way, it wouldnt be possible to overpower with JUST horses.

Its actually very nice to see ICS in action. What I dont understand though is, how comes you dont set city-focus (production, food, gold ..)? Do your workers know by them selfes what to do? If the mecanic is anywhere near civ4, they would go crazy on swapping tiles if they are left alone with no direction.

And yeah.. why buy out all the city states constantly? Its not necessary, you only need their votes when it comes to the UN. On the other hand... there is not much left to buy if you are not spending your gold on them. Or could you buy out some happiness ressources from the AI for a flat fee of gold? I dont know if thats cost effective.

Also I didnt see it, did you build a harbor in at least one of your off-sea cities? Not that you need the gold desperatly, but.. its nice to have trade routs because thats what ICS makes it so effective in civ5..

 

[Nick Carpathia]

I'm only up to #4, but oh god, that was painful watching you getting stomped by Siam. You really should have pre-positioned your horses and great generals before you attack. Plus, the military advisor is somewhat useful in telling you how many troops they have.

Also, you can talk to a dragged-in city state and ask for peace after you've peace treatied their ally, it saves getting workers picked off.

 

[RealHuhn]

First thing I noticed, placed the city first and than took the social policy. As my understanding is, the SP gets more expensive the more cities you have. If you bank up culture, wouldn't it be more effective to take the SP first? Or does the number of cities determine how much culture you need until you get the next SP being available and that number doesnt change once you reached the level of culture?

Sorry for hijacking the thread but I don't think this question is answered yet and I'd like to know the answer!!!

Is banking culture/policies only useful as long as you don't expand?
For example, banking culture for renaissance trees would be useless then?!? Sure you can pick a few right after you reach the renaissance but the absolute amount of policies would be much less than usual?

Should I always use my culture on policies before I build a new city?!

 

[aimlessgun]

Sorry for hijacking the thread but I don't think this question is answered yet and I'd like to know the answer!!!

Is banking culture/policies only useful as long as you don't expand?
For example, banking culture for renaissance trees would be useless then?!? Sure you can pick a few right after you reach the renaissance but the absolute amount of policies would be much less than usual?

Should I always use my culture on policies before I build a new city?!

It depends...

For the first couple policies, the costs are so low that even if you double the cost of a 30 culture policy...whatever. So banking a couple policies for maybe Classical won't matter a whole lot in terms of total policies gained.

Other than that though, if you're expanding, then yes banking policies will net you less of them. But notice that the later policies are also more powerful: the tradeoff may or may not be worth it.

Also you can beeline/slingshot certain parts of the tech tree to get to the later policies pretty fast (Rennaissance by turns 100-110, Industrial turn 130-140 are very doable, even faster if you're very good/lucky).

Another scenario is if you are running a puppet empire. You will only have 2-3 non-puppet cities so you can save policies all you want, since the costs will never go up as you expand (puppets of course have severe disadvantages to counterbalance this)

 

[Nick Carpathia]

Video 6: Ahaha, Elephant, 22 strength, +50% vs mounted, you're gonna get stomped.