TNESI: The Glorious Mysteries

[Disenfrancised]

lurker's comment: Then again, DisNES II is working just fine...

Coz its your narrative, not mine. If the desire for realism, playability, or sheer bloodymindness should take me I have no problem altering things.

Lengthy althists are very useful if they generate situations like different ethnic groups or traditions that what one would expect.

 

[LittleBoots]

To: Leon
From: Aquitaine
We will withdraw our forces from Spanish soil at the end of the year. We expect that you will send in troops to take care of garrisoning the cities we're leaving.

We again thank you for help and assure you our troops will be arriving to assume command as yours exit.

OOC: On the background history: that's where I read it, when following along with that discussion. That's gonna be fun to go back through...

@Thlayli - Do the remnants of Aragon accept the treaty? Specifically Malfreit?

 

[Insane_Panda]

And alex, LittleBoots, its really rather amusing how you all think I've written and hidden a huge althist somewhere.

"Where is the althist?!"

"I dunno."

"FIND IT PEOPLE. WE MUST FIND THE GREAT ALTHIST."

*everyone goes on a mad search*

"There is none."

"ah #$^@!"

 

[Thlayli]

Hmm, let me address some questions.

@das: The peasants were rather overjoyed, as they expected (wrongly) that the conscript armies would be disbanded. And being peasants, they could care less which dynasty owns the land, as long as they aren't overtaxed or forced into military service. The elite are less happy with the peace settlement, but see the need for peace.

@Dis: Liguria is quite ruined. Genoa is a burned out shell, and the harbor is heavily damaged, though not destroyed. The rest of the countryside is slightly less ravaged than Germany during the Thirty Years War.

@Panda: If you have 41-49 divisions, and you want to raise them a training level, 2 points would be more than enough. If there's less than 10 divisions left over after you raise the training level, they'll be included. But if you had 50-59 divisions, you'd need 3 points to raise the training level. Hope that makes sense.

@Littleboots: Lord Malferit accepts the treaty. Aragon has about 15 thousand men left in Barcelona, about half of them trained soldiers. I won't be doing stats for Aragon, as they really have nothing left.

Stats are coming, and will hopefully be done tonight.

From: The Papal States
To: The Catholic League

The people of Naples weep to see an Orthodox tyrant gain power over them, but we will withdraw if it is your will.

From: Gilanid Shahdom of Persia
To: Muwahhidun Empire of Egypt

We demand an explanation for these Arabian raids!

 

[Reno]

OOC: Have I missed any diplo adressed to me?

@Azale Keep your dirty Austrian Pope out of Sweden's spiritual affairs...

 

[Thlayli]

@Reno: Nope, though the Grand Duke of Lithuania does appeal for Swedish aid.

PC stats to the Golden Horde are done. The rest (PC's from Byzantium and Egypt east) will be finished in a few hours.

I'm not really sure what to do about NPC stats...I don't have the time to do all the minor, unimportant nations. So I think I'll make changes to them when NPC's engage in wars, etc. And obviously the more important NPC's will have regular changes.

 

[alex994]

@das: The peasants were rather overjoyed, as they expected (wrongly) that the conscript armies would be disbanded. And being peasants, they could care less which dynasty owns the land, as long as they aren't overtaxed or forced into military service. The elite are less happy with the peace settlement, but see the need for peace.

OOC: Actually I would disagree. Chinese peasants are much different then your run of the mill serfs/peasants in Europe The cultural brainwashing of over 2000 years of continuous Chinese civilization does that quite well. And it's small time farmers, not peasants . Min China is hardly a feudal society like the Yuan

Also, it's a CEASE-FIRE, not a formal peace. Until Icmancin finds the time to really negotiate a formal peace, it's still only a cease fire

 

[Insane_Panda]

Actually I would disagree. Chinese peasants are much different then your run of the mill serfs/peasants in Europe The cultural brainwashing of over 2000 years of continuous Chinese civilization does that quite well. And it's small time farmers, not peasants . Min China is hardly a feudal society like the Yuan

BS. Have you ever read the good earth? Chinese peasents, especially In the ancient era, couldn't give a rats ass about their rulers. THEY HAVE NO CONNECTION TO THE GREATER WORLD. THEY HAVE NO SENSE OF NATIONAL CONSCIOUSNESS. THEY HAVE NO REAL UNDERSTANDING OF THE POLITICAL DEVELOPMENTS AROUND THEM. If more than half of them can't read and haven't travelled more than 100 miles from their home., what makes you think they'll be all fervent nationalists? Even today, much of rural china is cut off from the greater world.

 

[LittleBoots]

IP, are you in Academic Decathlon by any chance?

BS. Have you ever read the good earth? Chinese peasents, especially In the ancient era, couldn't give a rats ass about their rulers. THEY HAVE NO CONNECTION TO THE GREATER WORLD. THEY HAVE NO SENSE OF NATIONAL CONSCIOUSNESS. THEY HAVE NO REAL UNDERSTANDING OF THE POLITICAL DEVELOPMENTS AROUND THEM. If more than half of them can't read and haven't travelled more than 100 miles from their home., what makes you think they'll be all fervent nationalists? Even today, much of rural china is cut off from the greater world.

 

[Cuivienen]

The Good Earth is actually a bad example, given that Wang Lung does actually leave his land and travel quite far before the Nationalists take over (IIRC). Snow Flower and the Secret Fan would be a better example in modern literature.

 

[Insane_Panda]

Non. We don't have such a thing at our school. We had "Scholar Quiz" but then it got slashed due to budgetary issues.

 

[Insane_Panda]

The Good Earth is actually a bad example, given than Wang Lung does actually leave his land and travel quite far before the Nationalists take over (IIRC).

But he has no idea of what is transpiring around him. He thinks the communist agitators are just a bunch of wierd men, and he thinks the soldiers just a nuisance which invade his home and generally cause a rucus. He does not have any sense that he belongs to a wider country. He is concerned, simply, with his wealth and his land.

 

[Cuivienen]

Meh. I read The Good Earth in 7th grade, so forgive me for not understanding its subtleties. I agree with your point anyway.

 

[LittleBoots]

Non. We don't have such a thing at our school. We had "Scholar Quiz" but then it got slashed due to budgetary issues.

A pity, its a great program AND California is rivalled only by Texas in USAD. Anyway, I only asked because the Good Earth is the reading material this year, and China is the focus in general. But all this is pointless information.

To add some value to to this post...

@Thlayli - I demand a response to my PM! when you get around to it

 

[Insane_Panda]

Meh. I read The Good Earth in 7th grade, so forgive me for not understanding its subtleties. I agree with your point anyway.

Thats fine. Please don't take my correcting you as me being a prick. Alex's notions on the mind of the Chinese man irritate me, however....

 

[alex994]

BS. Have you ever read the good earth? Chinese peasents, especially In the ancient era, couldn't give a rats ass about their rulers. THEY HAVE NO CONNECTION TO THE GREATER WORLD. THEY HAVE NO SENSE OF NATIONAL CONSCIOUSNESS. THEY HAVE NO REAL UNDERSTANDING OF THE POLITICAL DEVELOPMENTS AROUND THEM. If more than half of them can't read and haven't travelled more than 100 miles from their home., what makes you think they'll be all fervent nationalists? Even today, much of rural china is cut off from the greater world.

First of all, I'm assuming you completely missed the smile prior to that section with the run of the mill thing. The smile was supposed to note my sarcasm Though I'll continue none the less on the points I disagree with.

Compare the setting of the Good Earth opposed to the current setting. The setting in that story has the background in an era of unceasing wars, famines, droughts, and other natural disasters and etc. Here however, in the 1500 in Min-Yuan China, there has been no war for a long time, basically a cold war between the two sides. The memories of war aren't bright and flashing in the memories of the people. They're the stories and tales told by grandparents and oldsters to young children, told to, not witnessed. It's been years since the armies have collided. YEARS OF PEACE, GOOD HARVEST, AND PROSPERITY! (well, relatively speaking) While the War in name has been going on for three centuries, it's been a COLD WAR for years. That said, to the other points.

It's not the ancient era anymore though I would agree with you Chinese peasants in the ancient era would care less who ruled them as long they were "Chinese" or so to speak. You notice how the Yuan, Qing, and other invaders before them in China set up Chinese fashion dynasties? Partly because they became sinicized, but also partly to PLACATE the massive Chinese population(mostly peasants/farmers) in the present and the future.

On the matter of having a national consciousness, if one considers that English peasants in 1500 under Henry VIII already had an English national consciousness instead of say being "Dorseters and etc" the Chinese national identity and consciousness has been well stamped into the minds of the Chinese peasant. The Qin, Han, Tang, Song, Jin and now Yuan and Min. Why does the Yuan Dynasty proclaim themselves to be a Dynasty in the Chinese fashion and manner as opposed to a Mongol Empire?

The other points I pretty much agree with, though peasants NOT on the brink of starvation or the equivalent of bankruptecy can be said to be still nationalistic. Though there are instances where peasants even during times of trouble are nationalistic. An example is in the Qing Dynasty, corrupt and inefficient as it still was in the Mid and Late 19th Century, had many supporters in her fights against the "Foreign Devils." A large percentage of them making up the fanatical organization called the "Society of Harmonious Fists" But that is off topic...

 

[Swissempire]

Damnit. Sorry I was really busy this week/weekend. This is the first i've been on the forum really in like 5 days. I had a debate tornument in Philly and had to fly to UPENN.

And Dis, no i didn't get ANY pm's. At all.

IC:

To: Byzantinium
From: Andalusia

This alliance of which you speak shall be cemented. You are a bastion of the East against the Anarchy of Egypt.

To: Ireland
From:Andalusia

We shall gladly sign an alliance with you. As it is said in the Qu'ran, "and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians"

To: Genoa
From: Andalusia

We wish to speak at length with you about the colonial situation. We wish to stablize our relations in both Al-africa and Al-Valon.

To: Leon
From: Andalusia

We are disconcerted about your claiming of the Argonese throne without informing us. We wish to be informed of our allies actions and would like compensation for the Aragonese impact on our well-being over the centuries.

To: The World
From: Andalusia

Be not fooled by the opressors of Egypt. They seek only to destroy your nations. They are tyrants and blasphemers. They have, in uprisen in our nation, and they shall attack yours too!

 

[The Farow]

@ Kalthazar, I really have no time to write up a formal alliance to sign so lets just say it is mutual military cooperation and coming to the aide of the other in their time of need.

If you want something fancy written up in the near future you will have to do it yourself.

 

[Insane_Panda]

To: Byzantinium
From: Andalusia

This alliance of which you speak shall be cemented. You are a bastion of the East against the Anarchy of Egypt.

Unfortunately, we must back down from a full alliance at this time, as we do not wish to entangle ourselves in too many bounds. Therefore, we propose to re-evaluate it as a defensive agreement.

 

[Insane_Panda]

On the matter of having a national consciousness, if one considers that English peasants in 1500 under Henry VIII already had an English national consciousness instead of say being "Dorseters and etc" the Chinese national identity and consciousness has been well stamped into the minds of the Chinese peasant. The Qin, Han, Tang, Song, Jin and now Yuan and Min. Why does the Yuan Dynasty proclaim themselves to be a Dynasty in the Chinese fashion and manner as opposed to a Mongol Empire?

Your examples using the Qing dynasty and such societies are irrelevant to the discussion. Those societies, though they claim to be AGAINST European intervention, were founded upon imported ideas of nationalism, liberty, and the like.

If there was no war, and everything was peaceful, then that is even MORE reason AGAINST claims of national consciousness. Nationalism is defined by people uniting together because they are not a different group of people who live elsewhere. If there is no sense of conflict, then there is no sense of nationalism, atleast not among the peasentry.

Furthermore, the Chinese, though they had "national" consciousness in the form of their loyalty to China (though it cannot really be termed "national"), were not dynastically loyal. They were content as long as their rulers were Han. Comparing England to China is like comparing Apples to Oranges. England is a highly urbanized and small society with a fairly small population. England goes by western philosophy which stresses individualism and the like. National consciousness forms because the English see that they are different from the other nations around them, and come to realize that all of the English people like them are in the same boat against foriegners. Also, in England, due to its small size and relatively small population, aswell as due to its parliamentry tradition, there is a deep connection to the government, and what the government does immediately effects its citizens. China, however, does not have that luxury. No matter how "unified" your country is, it can never be really unified due to the vast size of China. What the Emperor does little effects the rural peasentry.

China, in essence, (during the 16th century) is much more like Oceania of 1984 than an actual nation-state. There is an elite who are very much so fervent about their domain, but to claim that the peasents care much about who governs them is like claiming that the proles cared as much for the Party in 1984.