To all the Christian evolutionists/Old Earth Creationists

[MobBoss]

It seems more likely to me that your wife spilled the beans to someone than god intevened.

As I said before, you wouldnt believe me. You are just too cynical. My wife has no reason to lie to me and I have no reason to think she "spilled the beans". We live over 2200 miles from our nearest family as well, so it wasnt anyone related to us.

But lets also consider your theory. If my wife did "spilled the beans" as you put it, that would still require for someone unknown to us to put a significant amount of cash into our mailbox, and to never ask for anything in return or any recognition for it. Why would someone not related to us do that? It has been over 13 years that this happened and to this day we still have no idea who did it. Heck, we even bought a new house last year....didnt get a envelope full of money this time though.

Anyway, you just proved my point....regardless of the situation you will just laugh it off and explain it away. But in my life, there have just been too many "coincedences" to just explain away like that. When I was a young guy still in school I was pretty cynical also....but time and experience tend to open your eyes a bit and sometimes things happen that there just isnt a good explanation for.

 

[Perfection]

As I said before, you wouldnt believe me. You are just too cynical. My wife has no reason to lie to me and I have no reason to think she "spilled the beans".

Pride, the fact that you view it as a Miracle, the fact that you might be embaassed talking aboutit in public come to mind

We live over 2200 miles from our nearest family as well, so it wasnt anyone related to us.

What about friends?

But lets also consider your theory. If my wife did "spilled the beans" as you put it, that would still require for someone unknown to us to put a significant amount of cash into our mailbox, and to never ask for anything in return or any recognition for it. Why would someone not related to us do that?

Sometimes people are nice and generos

It has been over 13 years that this happened and to this day we still have no idea who did it.

So it must've been god?

Heck, we even bought a new house last year....didnt get a envelope full of money this time though.

Anyway, you just proved my point....regardless of the situation you will just laugh it off and explain it away.

I'm not laughing. I do hwoever find it more likely that some odd occurance happened

But in my life, there have just been too many "coincedences" to just explain away like that.

Coincedences hapen all the time, though. You seem to be mistaking natural alignments of varius events with serious breaches in probability. Our brains like vivid examples, it's not uncommon to view remembered events as regular ocurances.

When I was a young guy still in school I was pretty cynical also....

I am sketpical, not cynical. There is a very important difference.

but time and experience tend to open your eyes a bit and sometimes things happen that there just isnt a good explanation for.

But god then becomes a good explination?

 

[MobBoss]

Pride, the fact that you view it as a Miracle, the fact that you might be embaassed talking aboutit in public come to mindWhat about friends?

Pride? Not in the equation...we were thankful, not prideful regarding it. And if anything we are not embarassed by it, if anything it is a testimony for us in our life as to Gods goodness. As for friends, at that time I was a lowly Sgt in the military...needless to say our friends never had that kind of money.

You seem to be mistaking natural alignments of varius events with serious breaches in probability.

And you seem to have a driving need to explain everything. Memo to you, not everything has an answer.

And yes, I think in this particular situation, especially since my wife and I never discussed this with anyone (despite what you think) God acting on our behalf is just as plausible as anything else....the fact that we prayed regarding the issue just days before pretty much seals the deal for me, as opposed to it being some "coincedence".

But hey, its ok. Like I said, you dont know me so its fine for you to make allegations about my wife talking or just explain it away in order to preserve your athiest outlook on things. But when it does happen to you, and I hope that it does, I just hope your not so closed minded that you miss something that might change your life.

 

[Azash]

MobBoss, how come God is a much more rational explanation than coincidence? Not challenging, just interested in your POV.

 

[MobBoss]

MobBoss, how come God is a much more rational explanation than coincidence? Not challenging, just interested in your POV.

1. We had prayed about it days before.

2. We didnt talk to anyone about it.

3. The money was just a little more than we needed to cover the down payment for our house.

4. Our mailbox was just one of a section of about 30 mailboxes...so if it was a random act, we beat pretty good odds for it to end up in our box.

5. We had no family in the area and none of our friends had that kind of money disposable.

6. If someone had just wanted to give us the money, why not just give it to us, instead of putting it into a mailbox in an apartment complex...kinda risky for that amount of money. Heck, as it was unmarked, I would think the mailman could have taken it and no one would have been the wiser, but that didnt happen.

 

[Azash]

Well.. I can see why you believe it's a miracle I'd say there always will be possibility, though. Oh, and about the mailboxes; that's 1:30, which is not a bad chance at all. And nr. 6.. Some people, me included, would not wish to draw attention to themselves, or your family's plight, by doing it in public.

 

[Perfection]

Pride? Not in the equation...we were thankful, not prideful regarding it.

Not pridefu in the money perhaps, but prideful in your glimpse of god through it

And if anything we are not embarassed by it,

Would you be embarassed if after this story she told you?

if anything it is a testimony for us in our life as to Gods goodness. As for friends, at that time I was a lowly Sgt in the military...needless to say our friends never had that kind of money.

What about your wive's friends? And regarding your wives family, how do you know that she didn't recieve the money and put it in the mailbox?

And you seem to have a driving need to explain everything.

Actually I would characterize that more of you. You explain this with god, while I say this or that might be true. I merely show some trains of thoughts that might lead to a more satisfying answer

Memo to you, not everything has an answer.

That is true, however I think in this case thier may be an answer that is satisfactory beyond mere coincidence

And yes, I think in this particular situation, especially since my wife and I never discussed this with anyone

Why do you believe that to be true?

(despite what you think) God acting on our behalf is just as plausible as anything else....

Except that the God explination violates physical law while the other's don't.

the fact that we prayed regarding the issue just days before pretty much seals the deal for me, as opposed to it being some "coincedence".

I find the coincedence idea possible, but more likely that your wife was involved

But hey, its ok. Like I said, you dont know me so its fine for you to make allegations about my wife talking or just explain it away in order to preserve your athiest outlook on things.

It's not really to preserve my naturalistic outlook I'd liken it to a magic trick. I know that there is something below the surface going on, but as to what I'm not sure. The sepeculaton here serves two purposes: 1. to provide examples on how you can develop plausible explinations without violating physics. 2. general interest in an interesting phenomenon.

But when it does happen to you, and I hope that it does, I just hope your not so closed minded that you miss something that might change your life.

I don't think fortunate events will effect my viewpoint much, but I don't think that I am missing much. I am still appreciative of such a gift and I actually am quite happy with my life's direction.

 

[MobBoss]

Not pridefu in the money perhaps, but prideful in your glimpse of god through it

See this is where if you knew me personally, you would realize that your statement is wrong.

Would you be embarassed if after this story she told you?

Not sure I understand the question.

What about your wive's friends? And regarding your wives family, how do you know that she didn't recieve the money and put it in the mailbox?

My wife's friends were generally even worse off than my friends. For one thing, I have been married for over 22 years. To be married that long requires trust and respect. Our marriage wouldnt work if we went around lying all the time to each other. So when she says she didnt, gosh, I actually believe her.

Actually I would characterize that more of you. You explain this with god, while I say this or that might be true. I merely show some trains of thoughts that might lead to a more satisfying answer

Rofl, more satisfying to you maybe. Remember, your the one trying to poke holes in my belief system, but when I give you a specific situation, you refuse to accept it.

That is true, however I think in this case thier may be an answer that is satisfactory beyond mere coincidence

I think so too. But my answer is that sometimes god does answer prayers.

Why do you believe that to be true?

Once again, its not our habit to sit around and lie to each other.

Except that the God explination violates physical law while the other's don't.

You incorrectly assume you know all the pysical laws. Perhaps there are some you dont know about yet.

 

[Perfection]

See this is where if you knew me personally, you would realize that your statement is wrong.

But I don't so I'm forced to jst speculate.

Not sure I understand the question.

Well, you hold a lot of emotion in this event. Perhpas you wife wouldn't want to embarass you with the truth

My wife's friends were generally even worse off than my friends.

Generally, but not exclusively?

For one thing, I have been married for over 22 years. To be married that long requires trust and respect. Our marriage wouldnt work if we went around lying all the time to each other. So when she says she didnt, gosh, I actually believe her.

In my personal experience and observation of other relations. I find that lying to protect the ones they love occurs. The truth hurts sometimes. We don't want to hurt the ones we love, so sometimes we spare them the truth.

Rofl, more satisfying to you maybe.

Yes, more satisfying to a \scientific perspective. The one that I view as valid

Remember, your the one trying to poke holes in my belief system, but when I give you a specific situation, you refuse to accept it.

I accept your belief in it. I just don't accept that your belief is correct

I think so too. But my answer is that sometimes god does answer prayers.

I view that idea as unfounded. There is no significant scientific data indicating that that is correct.

Once again, its not our habit to sit around and lie to each other.

Of course not, I would not allege that. It is quite obvious that you and your wife have a very good relationship. However, occasional lies in a good relationship do happen.

You incorrectly assume you know all the pysical laws. Perhaps there are some you dont know about yet.

It is an assumption, I'll grant you that. However I feel that it is a good assumption to make given the lack of data strongly indicating god's presence.

 

[MobBoss]

But I don't so I'm forced to jst speculate.

Well come on over for dinner sometime and lets open a bottle of wine!! I understand, and thus this reveals the real hindrance of online communication.

Well, you hold a lot of emotion in this event. Perhpas you wife wouldn't want to embarass you with the truth

Heh, my wife is scotch/irish. She embarasses me every chance she gets.

Generally, but not exclusively?

No..exclusively as well. We attended a small, primarily black, church at the time consisting mostly of homeless. That was her circle, while mine was military, with a few wargaming buddys who were almost always broke.

In my personal experience and observation of other relations. I find that lying to protect the ones they love occurs. The truth hurts sometimes. We don't want to hurt the ones we love, so sometimes we spare them the truth.

You havent raised any kids yet have you? To give any indication that falsehood is ok, is a sure path to raising a kid that hides a lot (more than normal) from you. My wife and I have always believed that honesty is the best policy, even if it hurts.

 

[Sophie 378]

Someone unkind once said something along the lines of "the plural of anecdote is not data".

 

[MobBoss]

Someone unkind once said something along the lines of "the plural of anecdote is not data".

Explain please?

 

[Sophie 378]

Sorry, I'm in an obscure mood. Your envelope of cash is an anecdote of something happening that you interpret as a miracle, yet it is perfectly possible for it not to have been. Even if several other people gave me anecdotes of similar miracle/good things happening, that wouldn't be scientific evidence for miracles occuring, therefore (sorry) I still don't accept it as proof of God's existance.

 

[MobBoss]

Sorry, I'm in an obscure mood. Your envelope of cash is an anecdote of something happening that you interpret as a miracle, yet it is perfectly possible for it not to have been. Even if several other people gave me anecdotes of similar miracle/good things happening, that wouldn't be scientific evidence for miracles occuring, therefore (sorry) I still don't accept it as proof of God's existance.

Shrug. People see what the want to see. Me included. But, my point is, when I was younger I thought differently, saw things differently. My mind changed for a variety of reasons...this was just one of them.

 

[Perfection]

Well come on over for dinner sometime and lets open a bottle of wine!! I understand, and thus this reveals the real hindrance of online communication.

Sounds great! Where you located?

Heh, my wife is scotch/irish. She embarasses me every chance she gets.

Embarass not devestate

I dunno, maybe she accidently slipped it and never remembered

No..exclusively as well. We attended a small, primarily black, church at the time consisting mostly of homeless. That was her circle, while mine was military, with a few wargaming buddys who were almost always broke.

Perhaps she had friends outside of that circle.

You havent raised any kids yet have you? To give any indication that falsehood is ok, is a sure path to raising a kid that hides a lot (more than normal) from you. My wife and I have always believed that honesty is the best policy, even if it hurts.

Did you have kids before the house?

 

[MobBoss]

Sounds great! Where you located?

Washington State, USA.

Embarass not devestate

Heh, I am a big boy, I can handle truth.

I dunno, maybe she accidently slipped it and never remembered

Entirely possible, I will admit. But the timeframe between our decision to buy a house and the actual event of the cash was pretty short, so I would say, while possible, the probablity of her doing but not remembering was small.

Perhaps she had friends outside of that circle.

Possible. My wife is a singer and as such has had people admire her for it before. But once again, the probability of such a person having knowledge of our need and desiring to act upon it would be slim.

Did you have kids before the house?

Yes, I have three daughters and all were born prior to our first home purchase.

 

[Perfection]

Washington State, USA.

Well, get me an airline ticket and I'll be there

Heh, I am a big boy, I can handle truth.

I dunno

Entirely possible, I will admit. But the timeframe between our decision to buy a house and the actual event of the cash was pretty short, so I would say, while possible, the probablity of her doing but not remembering was small.

Possible. My wife is a singer and as such has had people admire her for it before. But once again, the probability of such a person having knowledge of our need and desiring to act upon it would be slim.

Small probability happens. Rare events do happen.

Yes, I have three daughters and all were born prior to our first home purchase.

Yeah, I'm starting to lean toward your wife mentioning something and forgetting.

 

[MobBoss]

Yeah, I'm starting to lean toward your wife mentioning something and forgetting.

Well, the beauty of my arguement is that even if my wife did mention it and forgot it still resulted in a blessing from god. Someones heart would have had to have been touched in a way, possibly by god, in order to give that much money to us with no strings attached. You see, the event happened regardless of how god made it happen....he didnt have to just go poof and have money appear in our mailbox. God speaks to people in a variety of ways. Most likely he put it upon someones heart to give us the money, no strings attached.

 

[Archbob]

Based on Moboss's situation perfection, it is very unlikely that someone just "gave" that kind of money to them. All the evidence of the circumstances point against it, and yet you still somehow want to argue for that illogical conclusion. How is that scientific?

Yet, he says he did pray, they didn't talk to anyone about it, and the money was just enough.

If there is a loving God as we believe there is, he does indeed answers prayers, so there is evidence supporting our argument and the conditions Moboss was in is evidence against your arguments.

But you don't believe in things and have to havea reason other than God for things happening.

 

[El_Machinae]

I've never thought that trying to convince someone that a 'miracle' wasn't a miracle was very polite. Mainly because you're looking at it from a different perspective. Suffice it to say, Perfection will not be satisfied by the anecdote, MobBoss clearly is. Perfection's burden of proof is higher, which is fair. Exposing con artists is clearly a different story, but I don't think that MobBoss's anecdote indicates a con artist.

So my question has always been: "why would God be willing to meet MobBoss's burden of proof, and not Perfection's". I mean, Adam had a much easier time knowing that God existed, and thus his rebellion is more clearly a rebellion.

Shrug, just doesn't seem fair to me.

(I know, I know, who am I to judge fairness?)