Tomb Kings

[deadliver]

I know nothing about D'Tesh, I'd never heard of it. I'm far from a Warhammer canon expert. If you read the first post of this thread though, you'll see we're planning to use something like the Scions Reborn mechanic too; where some units can turn defeated enemies into units that can be settled for more population.

Do you think we'd need something more than that?

The Legions of D'tesh are in a module, and also in FFPlus. The D'Teshi are a straight undead army with no living units...really...just like the Scions, except they are more lich based. Everytime they capture or raze a city they gain slaves they can add to their population or use as workers. The D'Teshi can also move these slave units between cities to distribute the population. I think the spell they use is called Call Slave or something. Removes 1 pop from the city and produces a slave unit. Most, if not all their units have a chance to capture units and turn them into slaves.

I like both the Scion and D'Tesh fallow civ models but I think D'Tesh would fit better flavor and mechanics wise. If you are not including the Scion's chance to spawn units that can add to pop then I think you should just use the D'Tesh work instead. D'Teshi also spread their own hell terrain, something which was discussed earlier. IMHO the D'Teshi would be worth looking at, and possibly simpler to use.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=276614

 

[Ahriman]

I'll take a look, and see if D'Tesh fits better than scions.
I had planned to use the same Bottomless Vault mechanic for Khemri that the scions have (free spawned population, or pop buildable with hammers).

 

[Ahriman]

Hmm... I'm not sure that expansion *only* by conquest will be a great mechanic on most mapscripts. Civs don't really start close enough for that to be feasible.

Especially on the Warhammer World map things would be problematic.

 

[deadliver]

True. It does make for a slow game if you do not have raging barbs and nearby neighbors to "trade" with.

 

[deadliver]

Tomb kings could rely more on summoned undead. All built units could have a national limit except the basic ones, warriors and archers (maybe spearmen) representing the small number of noble/religious units. Summoned units would be subject to the Instability effect promotion giving them a chance to be killed or turned barbarian within a few turns (25% chance at least of striking). Units in the same stack as their summoner (limited by Tier) would be protected from Instability, also allowing them to gain xp and more importantly age. Eventually they would evolve into something better than their base unit (if not just from xp).

Most of the mundane units could be summoned: warriors, archers, spearmen, horsemen, siege equipment. This would encourage plans to either quick spawn an army or go for a riskier build up.

The work:
1.) New effect promotions starting with Instability and possible age related ones turning the unit into something else. This would also free up the summoning slot used by the unit.
2.) New promotion to represent evolved rank, nothing special probably just a small combat bonus or something.

I am pretty sure this can all be handled through XML (though not sure about the summons limit per caster, should be easy python meddling?) Not only would this provide more difference between the other undead (Carstein's style should be more mortal centric).

 

[Ahriman]

I'm pretty leery of putting instability in, having your stuff just randomly evaporate is really not much fun at all, particularly if it lies on a requirement to stay in the same stack as a summoner, which the AI won't really understand.

And I think the AI would do a terrible job of handling a summoned-rather-than-built army. The AI knows how to intelligently build a mixed army in its cities. It evaluates its building to its current needs; are you fielding lots of cavalry? Build spearmen. Fielding lots of melee? Build crossbows. Want to launch an invasion? Build catapults. The AI won't really do that in some kind of summoned unit system without a *ton* of new AI programming , so I think building most units with hammers should remain.

I think the unit list in the first post in this thread works pretty well and is likely to remain the base, except with minor tweaks.

I've no problem with there being some summoned skeletal units, thats in-theme, but I don't think that summoned units will comprise the majority of their army.
Keep in mind that you can still think of most of their units as being summoned/raised by liche priests in the cities, its just that they don't directly use a spell mechanic in the civ engine.

But I think the main Tomb King mechanic is in their city management (fallow trait, no natural population growth, etc), and their use of liche priests for buffs, and then the eternal army mechanic.

I think they will play plenty different from living factions and from the vampires, who will have normal city management and very powerful vampires.

 

[deadliver]

I'm pretty leery of putting instability in, having your stuff just randomly evaporate is really not much fun at all, particularly if it lies on a requirement to stay in the same stack as a summoner, which the AI won't really understand.

And I think the AI would do a terrible job of handling a summoned-rather-than-built army. The AI knows how to intelligently build a mixed army in its cities. It evaluates its building to its current needs; are you fielding lots of cavalry? Build spearmen. Fielding lots of melee? Build crossbows. Want to launch an invasion? Build catapults. The AI won't really do that in some kind of summoned unit system without a *ton* of new AI programming , so I think building most units with hammers should remain.

I think the unit list in the first post in this thread works pretty well and is likely to remain the base, except with minor tweaks.

I've no problem with there being some summoned skeletal units, thats in-theme, but I don't think that summoned units will comprise the majority of their army.
Keep in mind that you can still think of most of their units as being summoned/raised by liche priests in the cities, its just that they don't directly use a spell mechanic in the civ engine.

But I think the main Tomb King mechanic is in their city management (fallow trait, no natural population growth, etc), and their use of liche priests for buffs, and then the eternal army mechanic.

I think they will play plenty different from living factions and from the vampires, who will have normal city management and very powerful vampires.

I don't know anything about how easy it is to influence the AI to effectively summon and how hard it would be to complement their built units with proper summons support but that seems to be the real sticking point about a setup like this.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

one idea that just popped into my mind is, keep the majority of khemri untis as they are planned, but:
A) allow for lich priests to summon basic skeleton hordes with limited duriation, and give the priests promotions that allow them to summon progressively more powerful units the stronger they get. As a bonus give priests a promotion which temporarily ignores duration limits in units in its stack (perhaps up to x ammount of units?) representing them sustaining the incantaions necessary to animate them.
AND/OR
B) allow khemri cities to build UBER cheap basic skeleton hordes (cheaper than workers) but which have a set duration. again, for added bonus allow duration units to ignore any duration if within khemri borders (representing the heirophants in the cities sustaining the necessary incantaions)

these would give Khemri another different level of gameplay, but could potentially (more than likely) overpower them. as such we would have to either remove some other units from being buildable and only summonable as such, OR make the summons so weak that they have to be in huge numbers to be of any use other than cannon fodder.

 

[Ahriman]

I think A would work better than B. With B I can easily see the AI spamming tons of the skeletons because it thinks they are great value for money, and doesn't understand that they will all dissolve.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I thought so too, but just mentioned B for brain food

I think allowing Priests to summon various units with duration would be a good representation of the Incantation of Summoning. perhaps we'd still have to alow them to cast some minor spell which 'heals' or 'reanimates' wounded undead.

Ie.

-Khemri Incations Promotion (gives access to the 4 main Khemri spells including the incantation of summoning which just summons a basic skeleton horde with spears. all priests start with this.)

as priests level up they could choose one of the following promotions if they have the appropriate tech:
-Incantation of Reanimation (Khemri Incations Promotion. Heals Undead Units adjacent to the caster)
-Asp Incantation of Summoning Promotion (Req Khemri Incations Promotion.)
-Guardian Incantation of Summoning (Req Khemri Incations Promotion. Summons a unit of tomb guard)
-Incantion of Desert Summoning (Req Khemri Incations Promotion. Randomly Summons a Tomb Swarm, Tomb Scorpion or Carrion)
-Jackle Incantation of Summoning (Req Khemri Incations Promotion. Summons a Unit of Light Chariot or Light Knights randomly)

 

[Ahriman]

This definitely sounds fine. Though I thought you intended for Khemri priests to function differently from other mages, and have all their spells to start with?

I am relatively indifferent.

But healing, haste, strength buff and limited duration summoning all seem like good spells for liche priests.

I thought though that necromantic summoning was supposed to be a Necromancy magic thing (that Vampire counts will get) rather than a Khemri thing?
I bow before your superior knowledge of WH canon.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

you are definately correct that Vampires should be more necromantic summoning wise, and also that the Preists start with all their main spells (the 4 incantaions) but the idea of summoning and resummoning hordes of weaker skeletons and later on more powerful units is quite fitting for khemri as well. this is also still a very different bunch of spells than other branches of magic, as most summoing ones have a random chance to summon one unit, OR another. i think it would also be good if we could restrict casting the same incantation 2 turns in a row. not sure how that can work though.

to keep vampire magic distinct their summons i think should be permanents (ie one of each per caster such as with summon skeleton in FF) and would get very different summons (Ghouls, Banshees and ghosts to name a few). in addition they get the more damaging/ combat oriented necromantic spells revolving around Nagash (Ideas for those are burried somewhere in this forum)

sorry bout incomprehensible ramblings, its now 2 am my time haha bed time methinks.

 

[deadliver]

Not sure how it could be pulled off, yet, but I think these guys need to be more defensively themed. They really just want to be left alone lorewise....If we end up taking ideas from Opera (we should kidnap Opera btw) they and araby (probably lizardmen too) would be deadly deadly enemies too.

 

[Ahriman]

I think the easiest ways to make them defensive is just by terrain combat boosts, in their slowly spreading deserts, and being weaker outside.

"Just wanting to be left alone" doesn't really work very well for a faction in a Warhammer civ mod; conquest is kindof the goal here.

Unless we want to set them up for a Culture win like scions, but that doesn't really seem in character.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

"Just wanting to be left alone" doesn't really work very well for a faction in a Warhammer civ mod; conquest is kindof the goal here.

actually the woodelves 'Just want to be left alone' as well. Deadliver has a point, i can see how Khemri can be seen that way. however i do think there is still some margine of conqueror in Settra. Khalida is the more defensive of the 2.

Khemri and Araby should definately be mortal enemies though (well, at least Araby should see khemri as their mortal enemy, Khemri sees Lhamia and Sylvania as their mortal enemies)

Khemri to me is a very builder oriented civ (at least thats how i would play them). theyre still pertty much like the humans they once were. i would think they should be able to go either way depending on the leader chosen (settra for conquest, Khalida for defence.)

 

[deadliver]

I think the easiest ways to make them defensive is just by terrain combat boosts, in their slowly spreading deserts, and being weaker outside.

"Just wanting to be left alone" doesn't really work very well for a faction in a Warhammer civ mod; conquest is kindof the goal here.

Unless we want to set them up for a Culture win like scions, but that doesn't really seem in character.

I agree with you Ahriman that just turtling would be a little out of place but I also like the terrain spreading. My gaming buddy and I were thinking about bonuses in deserts and penalties outside with Araby having the opposite effect so they would come into conflict on the WB map.

actually the woodelves 'Just want to be left alone' as well. Deadliver has a point, i can see how Khemri can be seen that way. however i do think there is still some margine of conqueror in Settra. Khalida is the more defensive of the 2.

Khemri and Araby should definately be mortal enemies though (well, at least Araby should see khemri as their mortal enemy, Khemri sees Lhamia and Sylvania as their mortal enemies)

Khemri to me is a very builder oriented civ (at least thats how i would play them). theyre still pertty much like the humans they once were. i would think they should be able to go either way depending on the leader chosen (settra for conquest, Khalida for defence.)

Heh true Khemri probably wouldn't worry so much about humans as he would his undead enemies. At least the Lhamians want to take back what belongs to him iirc. These guys will definitely be on the blocks for a while, especially if we decide on two different playing styles dependent on leaders. I could see a conquest oriented game for Settra, especially if the WB map is edited to include nearby barbarian undead cities.

 

[rocklikeafool]

So, just to let you know, when you get around to implementing these guys, I'd definitely wanna playtest em.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I'd definitely wanna playtest em.

me too Khemri are my 2nd favourite civ

 

[deadliver]

I think the tomb kings need to spread an inhospitable terrain type whenever they settle a new city. Instead of some convoluted process, the terrain should just spread within their cultural borders. I think Araby should be able to do the same because they are elementalists (they can summon Djinn after all).

Hell terrain should be a big deal in WH, i guess it is in FF but I don't like needing to work at spreading it.

I am not sure if the AI understands it is bad to let neighbors live who spread hell terrain exist though. An easy fix to that problem would be to have massive diplomacy penalties like we discussed re: Araby vs. Khemri (khemri doesn't care if Araby is their neighbor, but Araby sure does care!)

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I think the tomb kings need to spread an inhospitable terrain type whenever they settle a new city.

they will, Shifting Sands.