Total Domination Challenge G&K
- Thread starter Grendeldef
- Start date
So, I thought that despite all my previous experience with deity games, I'll give this a shot. Deity, small continents, all victory types enabled, marathon speed (I really wanted to play out all the wars to the maximum).
Started Austria because I haven't played it before, got a fairly good start location, marble, stone, 2 sugar and a lone cow, along a river. I had one neighbour to share my island with, the Mayans, who kept pestering, but terrain favored me, and 2 composite bowmen kept them at bay.
I started with tradition, seeing that I had very little space to expand, managed to get stone circles as pantheon, finished a stonehenge, could found a religion with quite good options left (tithe, divine inspiration, pagodas, iterant preachers). Annexed some city states, continued gold tactic with commerce, plus nearly all cities were coastal anyway, so merchant navy really speeded things up.
I decided to start the offensive in the renaissance (I wouldn't have had much chance before without properly upgraded units), so I started wonder hoarding, mainly the merchant/gold ones. The mayans outteched me so much that when I attacked them with fresh gatlings and hussars, they had gw infantries and bombers. They were leading score by a lot until they lost their capital (half of their cities died to ships though). They were insanely good targets for spying on the other hand, got like 10 techs off them until they went down. After I realized how huge a lead they have, I disregarded tech almost entirely, focused on gold and culture (to get merchant navy and meritocracy).
After the Mayans had bit the dust, it was easy, I had all their cities, 4 hussars with drill 3, march, medic 1-2, 4 gatlings with barrage 3, march, range, logistics, 4 frigates with either targeting or bombardment maxed, range, logistics. Much later the bunch got 2 aa guns and a destroyer, but the only real counter against conquest was happiness, I had to buy theatres in nearly every city (besides meritocracy, all happiness wonders, Order opener, etc). The goal was not to raze any city, despite how useless it might have been.
All in all there were some things which were very funny. Mayan tech speed was insane, they hit industrial era the same time I hit medieval, had to defend against infantry with crossbows. Korea hit atomic before I hit modern (by that time I had like 3 times their population). Ai players produced tons of gold, like 3-4 times they could based on their cities.
For those who are interested, I'll attach the save file at the turn the last capital went down, the rest would've been really easy anyway, there was 1 player left, and to counter unhappiness, I could've simply started to buy stadiums. The cities might be badly built (I am a big fan of production, so I tend to build seaports for a lone fish for example), but the army was the only thing that mattered anyway.
Started Austria because I haven't played it before, got a fairly good start location, marble, stone, 2 sugar and a lone cow, along a river. I had one neighbour to share my island with, the Mayans, who kept pestering, but terrain favored me, and 2 composite bowmen kept them at bay.
I started with tradition, seeing that I had very little space to expand, managed to get stone circles as pantheon, finished a stonehenge, could found a religion with quite good options left (tithe, divine inspiration, pagodas, iterant preachers). Annexed some city states, continued gold tactic with commerce, plus nearly all cities were coastal anyway, so merchant navy really speeded things up.
I decided to start the offensive in the renaissance (I wouldn't have had much chance before without properly upgraded units), so I started wonder hoarding, mainly the merchant/gold ones. The mayans outteched me so much that when I attacked them with fresh gatlings and hussars, they had gw infantries and bombers. They were leading score by a lot until they lost their capital (half of their cities died to ships though). They were insanely good targets for spying on the other hand, got like 10 techs off them until they went down. After I realized how huge a lead they have, I disregarded tech almost entirely, focused on gold and culture (to get merchant navy and meritocracy).
After the Mayans had bit the dust, it was easy, I had all their cities, 4 hussars with drill 3, march, medic 1-2, 4 gatlings with barrage 3, march, range, logistics, 4 frigates with either targeting or bombardment maxed, range, logistics. Much later the bunch got 2 aa guns and a destroyer, but the only real counter against conquest was happiness, I had to buy theatres in nearly every city (besides meritocracy, all happiness wonders, Order opener, etc). The goal was not to raze any city, despite how useless it might have been.
All in all there were some things which were very funny. Mayan tech speed was insane, they hit industrial era the same time I hit medieval, had to defend against infantry with crossbows. Korea hit atomic before I hit modern (by that time I had like 3 times their population). Ai players produced tons of gold, like 3-4 times they could based on their cities.
For those who are interested, I'll attach the save file at the turn the last capital went down, the rest would've been really easy anyway, there was 1 player left, and to counter unhappiness, I could've simply started to buy stadiums. The cities might be badly built (I am a big fan of production, so I tend to build seaports for a lone fish for example), but the army was the only thing that mattered anyway.
I forgot to write pointers. I deem myself an average player with sometimes very bad conceptual mistakes, but it feels so good to have completed a deity domination, that I feel the urge to open the thinking bucket. First of all I played for annexed empire, didn't know what exactly was meant by "total domination".
For policies, I'd never try this without tradition. The Ai's wars are so offensive, and the real game begins so fast, that tradition's quick payoffs outweigh anything Liberty can offer. Piety is I think only good for lower difficulties where you can have fun and time to play around, patronage as well. Rationalism is redundant, you'll have research from sheer population size. Autocracy may seem tempting, but half of the tree is garbage, and the opener never netted me more than 30 culture. Your empire will be too large to benefit much from freedom, so 3 choices remain. Honor is really good if you want to start fighting early, it gives everything you need. Commerce is my sweet spot, because you'll have enough fuel for meritocracy and depending on the map, you'll have quite a lot of coastal cities, and gold is the only thing which is useful for everything. Order is plain simple, it's a lot better for this game than the other two industrials.
For wonders, there are some you can almost never get and some you can always get. Regardless of difficulty, I always managed to get the Pyramids, Sistine Chapel, Colossus, Big Ben, Machu Pichu, Brandenburg and Neuschwanstein. The AI usually pursued Great Library/Lighthouse, Hanging Gardens, Chichén Itza, Notre Dame, Stonehenge and Leaning Tower, the rest varied a lot.
My building order usually favors production-gold/culture-science, I know that there are lots of valid arguments against it, but it always works for me. A word on heroic epic, most people say the only worthwhile miniwonder is College, but I disagree. There were so many times my units survived something with under 10 hp, that I can't let go of that 15% combat bonus.
Never let you core units die, the prize cannot be high enough for losing an overpromoted powerhouse. The main goal for unit promotions should be survival and experience gaining speed. I value range over logistics for ranged, because against fortified cities it helps a lot more. For most melee, march is the first important to get to, blitz is most of the time useless because you need to be at a large advantage to risk 2 melee attacks.
For policies, I'd never try this without tradition. The Ai's wars are so offensive, and the real game begins so fast, that tradition's quick payoffs outweigh anything Liberty can offer. Piety is I think only good for lower difficulties where you can have fun and time to play around, patronage as well. Rationalism is redundant, you'll have research from sheer population size. Autocracy may seem tempting, but half of the tree is garbage, and the opener never netted me more than 30 culture. Your empire will be too large to benefit much from freedom, so 3 choices remain. Honor is really good if you want to start fighting early, it gives everything you need. Commerce is my sweet spot, because you'll have enough fuel for meritocracy and depending on the map, you'll have quite a lot of coastal cities, and gold is the only thing which is useful for everything. Order is plain simple, it's a lot better for this game than the other two industrials.
For wonders, there are some you can almost never get and some you can always get. Regardless of difficulty, I always managed to get the Pyramids, Sistine Chapel, Colossus, Big Ben, Machu Pichu, Brandenburg and Neuschwanstein. The AI usually pursued Great Library/Lighthouse, Hanging Gardens, Chichén Itza, Notre Dame, Stonehenge and Leaning Tower, the rest varied a lot.
My building order usually favors production-gold/culture-science, I know that there are lots of valid arguments against it, but it always works for me. A word on heroic epic, most people say the only worthwhile miniwonder is College, but I disagree. There were so many times my units survived something with under 10 hp, that I can't let go of that 15% combat bonus.
Never let you core units die, the prize cannot be high enough for losing an overpromoted powerhouse. The main goal for unit promotions should be survival and experience gaining speed. I value range over logistics for ranged, because against fortified cities it helps a lot more. For most melee, march is the first important to get to, blitz is most of the time useless because you need to be at a large advantage to risk 2 melee attacks.
Grendeldef
Trancerelic & coffeeholic
I edited the original post so the challenge is officially ongoing for ~3 weeks. Keep the ideas coming for the next challenge, though.
I personally got the new pc up & running but I'm struggling to decide with which civ to pursue. China seemed inviting but after Tabarnak's game I prolly try something else for variety's sake.
About the boring part - do not make the 'one more turn' decision unless you feel comfortable; it's only a game. Besides there's plenty of time to complete the challenge. Tabarnak's approach with reasonable sessions is highly advisable as this challenge prolly gives less turns of leisure than one's usual games.
Back in Civ2 I played 44hrs straight apart from making more coffee because I had an interesting game but I have no intentions to repeat that even in any minor form. The lenght of a session is not part of the challenge.
G
I personally got the new pc up & running but I'm struggling to decide with which civ to pursue. China seemed inviting but after Tabarnak's game I prolly try something else for variety's sake.
About the boring part - do not make the 'one more turn' decision unless you feel comfortable; it's only a game. Besides there's plenty of time to complete the challenge. Tabarnak's approach with reasonable sessions is highly advisable as this challenge prolly gives less turns of leisure than one's usual games.
Back in Civ2 I played 44hrs straight apart from making more coffee because I had an interesting game but I have no intentions to repeat that even in any minor form. The lenght of a session is not part of the challenge.
G
I don't think you can play at this speed. Must be standard for better comparisons. And at marathon it's less of a challenge
RedRover57
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So, just to be clear, for this challenge does your final conquest need to be the last remaining capital, upon which the game ends and you must have control of every city? Or can you use the "just one more turn" option and clean up remaining cities after conquering the last capital? I would think the former, otherwise you would be continuing after the game is "over".
Grendeldef
Trancerelic & coffeeholic
As said before the VC is simply to control every city on the map apart from CSs still alive - the order of conquests makes no difference nor does any other VC possibly achieved while pursuing this. So if the last city is not an original capital one has to continue after std domination VC with 'one more turn' option.
The 'one more turn' comment I made earlier is purely in reference to keep the gaming sessions within reason timewise.
G
RedRover57
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Ok that makes it considerably easier, particularly in terms of happiness management. However, I still don't have any delusions about being able to beat Tabarnak's time.
Grendeldef
Trancerelic & coffeeholic
Yup, easy is still very relative term here and Tabarnak's result hopefully won't scare peeps off completely. Games like these are highly dependable on environment, mainly map so it's still interesting to see the games even if the result isn't fastest one.
G
) for next challengeRedRover57
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Anything other than a domination victory on a small continents map is probably too easy even on Deity (and even with OCC). Science and culture victories in particular are usually easy on a primariliy water-based map, However, maybe it's time to re-visit the idea of a Deity OCC total domination victory in which nothing remains but your capital at the end. May be doable on small continents now that naval mechanics have changed.
RedRover57
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Think I will give it a test run on Immortal:
OCC
Small continents
Standard size and speed
England
Goal - Domination victory with only my capital remaining
I'm guessing I will re-roll for a decent start, but not go crazy with it. I just want reasonable production and growth potential since it is OCC (e.g., re-roll if tundra start). Also I'll just use random opponents.
I anticipate that the biggest issue will be availability of iron (for SoL).
OCC
Small continents
Standard size and speed
England
Goal - Domination victory with only my capital remaining
I'm guessing I will re-roll for a decent start, but not go crazy with it. I just want reasonable production and growth potential since it is OCC (e.g., re-roll if tundra start). Also I'll just use random opponents.
I anticipate that the biggest issue will be availability of iron (for SoL).
RedRover57
Emperor
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The OCC domination variation is definitely tricky even on Immortal instead of Diety. As expected, lack of iron can be a problem. As England you don't really need it for land attacks (longbows plus horse units to cap cities is good enough), but having enough for Ships of the Line (frigates) is pretty crucial. On several attempts I found myself with no iron in my capital, and also no iron available in any CS or AI civ. Needless to say this kind of stops you in your tracks mid-game.
I have also had map issues. The Small Continents map can be quite strange. I had one game where there was a thin snaky continent that spanned the entire map from north to south poles. This made it really difficult to attack cities on the side opposite of my territory since I had to sail my fleet completely around the world. Without the promotion that allows your ship to heal in foreign territory this quickly becomes really tedious, since you can only heal in your capital (or a CS ally if you have one near the front). Not to mention having to travel all the way back to upgrade units. I may go back to regular continents (or large islands?).
It is also very difficult to keep pace tech-wise. I'm thinking that high growth/food potential in your capital is even more important than production. The extra spy with England can be helpful if you can steal techs. In a domination game you start to run out of potential RA partners quickly (plus they aren't that great if you can't build the PT anyway). Also, you get very few GS since you have only one city to produce them, plus they become expensive due to all of the Great Generals and Great Admirals that you obtain naturally through constant combat.
I'm convinced that this challenge is possible but I will need to keep trying.
I have also had map issues. The Small Continents map can be quite strange. I had one game where there was a thin snaky continent that spanned the entire map from north to south poles. This made it really difficult to attack cities on the side opposite of my territory since I had to sail my fleet completely around the world. Without the promotion that allows your ship to heal in foreign territory this quickly becomes really tedious, since you can only heal in your capital (or a CS ally if you have one near the front). Not to mention having to travel all the way back to upgrade units. I may go back to regular continents (or large islands?).
It is also very difficult to keep pace tech-wise. I'm thinking that high growth/food potential in your capital is even more important than production. The extra spy with England can be helpful if you can steal techs. In a domination game you start to run out of potential RA partners quickly (plus they aren't that great if you can't build the PT anyway). Also, you get very few GS since you have only one city to produce them, plus they become expensive due to all of the Great Generals and Great Admirals that you obtain naturally through constant combat.
I'm convinced that this challenge is possible but I will need to keep trying.
RedRover57
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Another issue you run into during the OCC domination variation - you quickly achieve the troop cap that your civ can support without gaining the production penalty. For example, in mid-game (turn 200ish) in my attempt with England my civ could support 17 units without the penalty which is basically:
Capital - 1 worker, 1 defensive unit (mainly on barb duty)
Land army - 6 longbows, 1 knight, 1 Great General
Navy - 4 SoL, 1 privateer, 1 Great Admiral, 1 caravel for exploration
Doesn't leave you much to work with since the penalty is severe (10% reduction in production for each excess unit).
Capital - 1 worker, 1 defensive unit (mainly on barb duty)
Land army - 6 longbows, 1 knight, 1 Great General
Navy - 4 SoL, 1 privateer, 1 Great Admiral, 1 caravel for exploration
Doesn't leave you much to work with since the penalty is severe (10% reduction in production for each excess unit).
Grendeldef
Trancerelic & coffeeholic
I do like these sort of challenges as it breaks the usual game play but I'm getting seriously annoyed by AI cheats and/or bugs when setting up units for several turns is screwed by AI stacking or spawning units out of nowhere or something similar.
As China was already taken I thought I'll have a go with Lizzy. Hard to get a start with a river but after I did the game seemed decent apart from Ottomans as a runaway. Interesting part is the 6-2 start and next to Attila I didn't have to wait for long the 1st war. 240 seemed hard so the game is unfinished.
Next try was Nappy with food heavy 5-3 start. I thought I was doing ok even though China with GW & chukos is painful until one of my CS allies got married to the red devil ~T140. I played few turns more apparently Austria has it's continent so it's actually 5-2-1 and therefore I might end the game eventually just out of interest.
My current game is with Arabs as 5-3 start with Attila & Ramesses next door. Not surprisingly Attila DoWed early but he was easily dealt with. The crappy part was his location - behind countless forests & jungles so unapproachable with my chariots. After that nothing has gone according to plan and T240 seems too hard but I'll finish this game - as soon as the electricity comes back; not welcomed clackout but it surely put an end to a longish session.
T200 the Huns & the Ottomas are gone, Egypt has 2 crappy cities & USA one. Currently cleaning out Isabella on my and Dido on the other continent with severe unhappiness. Spain will be easy but Dido is a pain and Gandhi, my ally on the other continent is last with 5 20+ cities.
This could've been a decent game had I found a mercantile CS before T190. Also my sci is so low that I'll prolly finish the game before I'll research battleships - luckily no one else is much more advanced.
G
Grendeldef
Trancerelic & coffeeholic
Pick opponents to prevent AI civs with strong early UUs slowing down your plans
That would be against the rules & therefore cheating. Besides, as Attila is very keen on rams he's actually a fairly desirable AI opponent.
But the storm is over & I got electricity again so I can finish the Arab game today or tomorrow. After that I'll prolly finish the with Nappy or try something else.
G
RedRover57
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I've been trying to figure out how best to set up the OCC domination variation. I was having difficulty with Small Continents on Immortal so I switched to Large Islands on Emperor, but it was way too easy. Basically, on an islands map all you need to do is play it like an OCC science VC game, but just beeline to Navigation. All you need then is 6 frigates (beg, borrow or steal 6 iron if you don't have it within your borders, or setup the game with the Strategic Balance option) and a privateer (to commandeer enemy caravels that can be used as throwaway units to cap cities) and you can conquer the entire map with that small fleet. No need for ground troops whatsoever, unless the enemy has 1 or 2 cities that aren't on the coast, in which case you need a few conventional troops at the end to capture those cities. So I think I need to go back to some sort of continents map for more of a challenge, but the main issue I am having with continents is the restricted number of troops you can field without a production penalty in an OCC. This makes anything above Emperor difficulty very problematic.
fascinating thread. im not deity lvl good and im not domination good either so i might try it but unlikely to get past the renaissance.
the next challenge should be Deity Diplo Vic on standard settings, continents, with mandatory presence of Austria as an AI civ. theres enough rage about their abuses at high levels that im curious who could beat them short of beelining them militarily if you get them on your continent. Plus diplo is quite hard to me with all the spy activity late game. i'd be interested to see what really good players can do about it.
the next challenge should be Deity Diplo Vic on standard settings, continents, with mandatory presence of Austria as an AI civ. theres enough rage about their abuses at high levels that im curious who could beat them short of beelining them militarily if you get them on your continent. Plus diplo is quite hard to me with all the spy activity late game. i'd be interested to see what really good players can do about it.
