Tough Situations

[DNK]

I'm currently playing a game as Qin on prince with 6 opponents. I've managed to virtually annihilate Isabella, and now have only Genghis (friendly) as a neighbor, with Mansa behind him and Gandhi behind Mansa (Napoleon and Liz on the other continent, but they're insignificant).

The problem is this: my economy is doing poorly (cottage spamming, but it will take a while), whereas Gandhi is pulling ahead hard. Why? He has the same amount of land, but a huge advantage: 1. he hasn't had to worry about war and 2. he founded Buddhism and Hinduism, spread Buddhism to 20+ cities, and it's in his capital. Probably going with bureaucracy, which means about an extra 45 gpt for him (has been for a long time).

A land invasion would prove impossible, and a sea invasion equally so. He's too far ahead for my units to do much by the time I pulled a navy together to ferry them over. I've got Cho-Ko-Nus and he's got grenadiers... More land grabs to equalize are not an option because my economy's already sucking. Not to mention I'd be wrecking my relations with Genghis and further angering Mansa in the process (who is fairly advanced himself, for similar reasons).

So, what's a Qin to do? Cottage spam and pray to eke out a space race victory? Maybe beeline to fission, build Manhattan, and the next turns rush buy as many nukes as possible and obliterate Gandhi before he can win, then UN vote non-nuclear treaty?

How would you have handled this from the get-go? What's the grand strategy for such situations?

 

[Baldas]

It's a difficult situation.

It's a shame Genghis (who you are friendly with) isn't a neighbour of Gandhi, or you could get him into a war on your behalf. Could you bribe Mansa into a war with Gandhi, or vice versa? While they are fighting you can catch up with some techs. If neither of them will go to war with the other on their own, what if you declare war first and then ask them to join? That can make them more more likely to go to war because they aren't fighting on their own. It's a bit risky, but you have Genghis (at least) between you and them so he will protect you to some extent from a land war. I'm not suggesting you would actually invade, just declare. Does Genghis have open borders with Mansa or Gandhi? If not, and if his borders seal off your part of the land then you will be mainly protected and could declare a phoney war with less risk.

Once you have caught up a bit get some pillagers over there. If you aren't strong enough to take cities you can still stifle a civ with pillaging, allowing you to overtake them with techs and crush them later.

In terms of victory conditions, have you considered a cultural win?

 

[Cam_H]

(This thread has been sitting here for 13 hours unanswered - and I get beaten in a cross post! ... anyway ... further to Baldas' suggestions ...)

DNK,

Probably a posted game would be best here.

From what you say I'm guessing that you're more or less suggesting that attacking either Mali or India is simply out of the question, even if you had Genghis' help. Conversely, you could look at France or England for expansion (Cavs?). If you were feeling particularly darstedly, you could backstab Mongolia.

If you think that you've got a fighting chance at picking up The Internet and had one or two Great Engineers saved up for a hurry on The Space Elevator, a Space win may be quite possible. You might be able to bribe Genghis into war with the other two after gifting him tech's like Industrialism and Artillery.

 

[DNK]

It's a difficult situation.

It's a shame Genghis (who you are friendly with) isn't a neighbour of Gandhi, or you could get him into a war on your behalf.

He'd get slaughtered. He has maybe 3 cities to Gandhi's five, and he's so many tiers of techs behind it's not even funny. Sure, I could gift him some, but I'm behind myself.

Could you bribe Mansa into a war with Gandhi, or vice versa?

Mansa hates me. I'll look into Gandhi attacking, but I'm worried he'll just take more land.

Once you have caught up a bit get some pillagers over there. If you aren't strong enough to take cities you can still stifle a civ with pillaging, allowing you to overtake them with techs and crush them later.

Well, getting caught up is the hard part. Really, I just need to raze Delhi, screw the diplo penalties. His economy would crash without that double, double shrine income. Problem is getting people over to raze his capital...

In terms of victory conditions, have you considered a cultural win?

5 cities, no culture, 1200 AD. I'm not sure it's doable, but I haven't gone for one in so long I wouldn't really know.

Probably a posted game would be best here.

It's personally modded, though.

From what you say I'm guessing that you're more or less suggesting that attacking either Mali or India is simply out of the question, even if you had Genghis' help. Conversely, you could look at France or England for expansion (Cavs?). If you were feeling particularly darstedly, you could backstab Mongolia.

Well, the problem is my economy is in shambles from years of fighting Isabella just to get marginal lands. I'm going to sell off some troops and cottage spam one of my production cities, but it will take a while before I can start expanding again. Mongolia was target #1, since there's no need to worry about navy with him (and I could easily defeat him right now if I had the finances for it... all these Cho-ko-nus and cats sitting at his border is really depressing).

If you think that you've got a fighting chance at picking up The Internet and had one or two Great Engineers saved up for a hurry on The Space Elevator, a Space win may be quite possible. You might be able to bribe Genghis into war with the other two after gifting him tech's like Industrialism and Artillery.

Yeah, if it is a win it will be a really late-game pull from behind thing. Genghis is effectively useless, only use is future territory for Qin

 

[nullspace]

If Gandhi only has grenadiers, then there are still a whole lot of turns left before he launches a spaceship. He's ahead right now, but you've got more territory and more cottages, so your economy will become more powerful than his. There's no reason to attack him right away, because the longer you wait, the stronger you'll be relative him.

My plan would be to aim for universal suffrage, bombers, tanks, gunships, marines and transports. You should be able to a achieve this well before Gandhi launches. Once you have the techs you need (don't forget combustion), you can shut off research and buy a big military. Bombers are the main attack force, everything else is there mainly to quickly advance through enemy territory and occupy the cities. With this military, you can win any fight, even if he has mech infantry, modern armor, jets, and stealth.

The tricky part might be actually getting to Gandhi, if Genghis and Mansa Musa are blocking the way and they give open borders to Gandhi, but not to you. But it is possible to start the invasion with an amphibious assault.

 

[DNK]

The problem is that I don't have that much more territory or cottages. I counted... maybe after I'm done spamming +7 versus his 19-20, which ignores his massive shrine income and AI benefits. It about evens out! But I'll already be far behind by then.

I think I can get into Gandhi's territory by land. Just make a railroad through Khan's and go for it (he'll probably have feudalism by then )