Tower of Mastery Victory

[monolith94]

The only tower I ever build is divination. If you can plan it so it finishes just as you reach a really high level tech accessibility, it can be brilliant, like a leap into mithril weapons after having just finished researching mithril mining.

 

[QES]

Or just quicker. By the time I build this, I usually have the ToM started already.

At that point shouldnt you just knock over that last city in your way? If you've got one of everything...that means that nothing much is left. OR you're half the world - so take it.
-Qes

 

[Hypnotoad]

At that point shouldnt you just knock over that last city in your way? If you've got one of everything...that means that nothing much is left. OR you're half the world - so take it.
-Qes

I haven't found that to be true. I will fight wars where my goal is to acquire their mana nodes and then, in a position of dominance, I sue for peace. In one ToM victory I had less than a quarter of the land (large map).

 

[eerr]

I haven't found that to be true. I will fight wars where my goal is to acquire their mana nodes and then, in a position of dominance, I sue for peace. In one ToM victory I had less than a quarter of the land (large map).

how much of it was green and wooded compared to the rest of the world?

 

[Nikis-Knight]

At that point shouldnt you just knock over that last city in your way? If you've got one of everything...that means that nothing much is left. OR you're half the world - so take it.
-Qes

Well, I think I have won in ToM victories twice. Both times there were multiple civs left with multiple cities, some friendly to me, some not. Either way I *was* the biggest, and could have fought a long drawn out war to eliminate every last one (or however much needed if playing for domination.) But I'm not sure if it would have been that much quicker than building the tower.

Regardless, I think making RoO quicker would help everyone get it even sooner, no?

 

[Hypnotoad]

how much of it was green and wooded compared to the rest of the world?

Probably about an even amount. I had built some cities in undesirable locations because there were mana nodes there. Little colonies whose sole function was picking up an artic mana node.

 

[Mesix]

I think the ToM needs to be reworked. I like the idea that you can win by researching magic techs and building a series of wonders (similar to a spaceship victory in the Vanila). As the game plays out now it requires too much conquest to get the necessary mana to build the various precursor towers. I have tried this victory a few times on a large map and had to conquer a large portion of the world to get enough mana resources to build the towers. The spaceship victory in the Vanila is difficult (or at least time consuming) to achieve, but it can be done without having to declare war on almost every opposing civ. I think it would be nice if a player could concentrate on research and magic development to achieve this victory whithout ever having to go to war (unless of course they want to).

A related mechanic that I think needs to be reworked is the mana resource trading. I understand that the mana resources have to be weighted so the AI will value them more than traditional resources, but the way it is implemented now is a bit extreme. An allied civ will almost never trade their mana resources and yet they often demand that the player trade them cheaply (and give a negative friendliness modifier if you refuse to trade away your additional mana to them). I think that a friendly civ should be willing to trade mana resources on a one for one exchange for other mana resources and perhaps a three to one for traditional resources. This would make it possible (but expensive) to trade for the mana necessary to build the towers.

Another idea that may work well would be to make it possible to discover new mana nodes as the game progresses. Perhaps researching certain techs could reveal a new mana node (preferably within the borders of the players civ). Perhaps a few more national wonders could be added that reveal mana resources as part of their effects. Perhaps adept units could have a function where they search for mana and have a chance to find a node by using this function for a number of turns (similar to the way mines sometimes randomly produce new mineral resources). Unit promotions could be added for adept units that improve their chances to reveal a new mana resource.

These are a few ideas that would allow a player to eventually get more mana resources without having to conquer the world. The ToM victory is supposed to be an alternative to the conquering victory after all. The barbarians and other dangers would still require a player to build up an adequate defense or become a target in the dangerous world of FfH. Researching and building multiple wonders would still require expansion in the early game to make a large enough nation.

 

[Bad Player]

There is a wonder you can build which puts more mana nodes on the map (I haven't built it but I doubt you'd get more than another one node each).

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Maybe Rites of Oghma (the wonder giving more mana) should be repeatable? Give a bit of a cost increase each time.

 

[Good Sauce]

In my last game i won by a mastery victory. i was only one source away but didnt want to go to war so built the rites, but not a single mana source appeared in my territory. at this point i controled 1/4 to 1/3 of the world territory. This tends to happen most times i build it, I really think it should always give at least one to the civ that builds it.

 

[Azragaul]

Why not just make the minor tower take longer to build if you don't have all the types of mana. i.e. the Tower of Elements make it take 4 times as long if you have only fire mana, three times as long if you have fire and water etc. You have to have at least one of that mana type to start building it. Once you build it then you could get the player access to the mana types they do not have.

Kinda like not having aluminum you can build the spaceship parts but it takes you longer.

If 4 times longer is too long then add a building with some late game magic tech that allows the towers to be build faster.

 

[Mesix]

Another idea for allowing a player to receive another mana resource would be to allow a player to sacrifice an archmage unit to create a mana resource. It could be thought of as some powerful spell that consumes the archmage or some form of trancendence where the archmage is becoming one with the magical power he wields. Maybe there would be side effects like destroying other units in the tile or creating "pollution" that would have to be cleaned up. Whatever the name/cause of the power, its effect would be to give up an archmage unit and receive a mana resource in the tile where he was. An archmage takes a long time to train and mature so it is not a cheap way for a player to gain access to more sources of mana, but it would give a player another option.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Compared to the power that having extra mana gives, it would be way too cheap. Heck, the Amurites would have no trouble at all covering their empire with nodes.

 

[Silverkiss]

You could put more limitations like the archmage needs to be level 15 or something to learn the spell that creates a mana node.... But it would be too easy for the Calabim in any way...

 

[MrUnderhill]

Well, I had an idea that would incorporate the towers with the metamagic spell sphere, so that each tower (and the Amurite Palace) would provide 1 mana source, and the only way to get all the metamagic spells would be to get a mana source for each level.

The node-making spell could fit in as one of those metamagic spells (Level 2 or 3, maybe?). That would limit it more to players who are trying to get the Tower of Mastery rather than those who are trying to getting Fire II for all their mages for free. With the default 3 mana a civ gets, and 2-3 mana sources, building two of the towers should be easy enough.

 

[hadrian11]

I agree with earlier comments that I'd like the Tower of Mastery victory to not require you to go to war to get extra mana nodes (as is almost always the case in games that I've played -- sometimes I need to get just 1 or 2 more, sometimes I've had to conquer half the world to get enough nodes).

Maybe late game techs could either:
1. provide mana resources so that if you were missing certain types, then you could just research to that late tech and get that mana source.
2. or enable semi-expensive national wonder buildings which would give access to mana resources. Something like a Mana well, after being built, would grant you a mana resource. Maybe link this to the tech Omniscience.

 

[Hypnotoad]

I have to say, I like it the way it is. It is the only victory condition I know of that requires some war but not complete war. I think it is good that way. Kael said somewhere that he doesn't want it to just feel like a re-skinned spaceship victory. I think it succeeds in this wonderfully. Some intelligent war but no need for complete domination.

 

[felwar]

I also have to say I like it the way it is. Mana nodes give strategic goals when you go to war instead of just a total annihilation or domination victory. Your wars can be more surgical, acquiring just the right resources to win. If you want to win without going to war, go for a cultural or point based victory. I like the tower because it's a nice middle ground.

 

[Xuenay]

Maybe Rites of Oghma (the wonder giving more mana) should be repeatable? Give a bit of a cost increase each time.

The cost's already so high that I very rarely build it even for the first time. I think it could be toned down a bit.

One neat alternative would be to allow you to capture the palaces of your enemies when you eliminated an opponent. Three new mana sources right there, but requiring a war first.

 

[MrUnderhill]

One neat alternative would be to allow you to capture the palaces of your enemies when you eliminated an opponent. Three new mana sources right there, but requiring a war first.

Funny you should mention that.

We were talking about that same idea a while back. It was decided that 3 free mana nodes was too much. I think maybe 1 node per conquered civ would be balanced, especially since every civ has a unique spell sphere.