TR03 - Losers self-teach DemiGod

[dmanakho]

Agree with you Bede, it is either all or nothing...
Quoting myself from previous post:

Since it looks like we are going to have some early archer wars we may want to put research to 0 after that and start building stacks of spears/arhers/pults to get to the resources.

it's okay to do full speed research in AA but once everyone in MAs 0% is much better IMHO, I think we will save more money that way.

and BTW nice playing .
What are our war plans?
Should we sign Porto to fight Spain as well...
That way they will spend extra military they have in 20+ turns we should be able to turn on them to get that iron.

 

[Bede]

Following orders and building where indicated until the big news of 1990BC when our brave and lonely scout in the tundra finds this jewel:

One more tech we don't have to trade for.

Then in 1950BC Philosophy comes in right on the button so I open the Big Picture window and make this trade:

Then select Currency as the free knowledge. Once the interturn is over it's back to the Trade screen and sell Philosophy to anybody has money, then set the research to Literature at maximum as we are going to need libraries and markets to keep pace with the nerd nations in the future.

With all that money in the bank open embassies with everybody (all but Russia are building some kind of wonder in their capitols, she's building a settler) and it is a good thing I did as this message comes in from the Foreign Office:

Of course I suggest she ride off on Rosinate for such a Quixote-ish move and she tilts at our windmill and declares war...

So place a call to all our new ambassadors and build alliances with Ottomans and Babylon against Spain. I pay them in gold per turn rather than our leading edge tech as I want to keep them interested and I can always sell them knowledge for our money back later. It costs 23gpt (9gpt to BAbylon and 14gpt to Ottomans) but there is still enough in the treasury to support maximum research (at a deficit), which can always be made up by peddling Currency around.

Here is what Currency can do for us (trade not made) if we think it is time.

I am not sure about making a deal for Map Making as it is knowledge we can't really use right now.

Running my eyes across the map finds this source of horses in the far NW.

Two more towns from the W-W-NW Tarsus spot (warrior and settler are one move out from there) and we have our horses.

My approach to research at this level is a little different than AdmK's or d-man's. As long as we have the cash in hand I like to push the science budget as hard as possible. The premium built into AI owned monopoly techs at Demi-god makes minimum research a loser's game. Better to put everything you can afford into the science budget as it does buy you a discount when the AI out-researches you to a technology. Or put nothing at all. The in-betweener just doesn't help and leaves you wondering why you can't buy anything. That is why markets and libraries are important as both structures multiply the return on commerce.

Our workforce is lagging behind our population growth BTW so having that town on the wheat as a worker farm is going to pay off.

Note on trading technique (as buyer): always before opening negotiations go to the F1 screen and set all sliders to 0 ( or you can leave entertainment where it is). Then make the best deal you can as you can always move the sldiers back up where they belong afterward.

And don't be afraid of deficit research that looks like it will over-run the available cash. You want to pile up the beakers just as fast as you can, when you are one turn away from going broke you can always turn it down. It can a risky tactic when the neighbors are likely to make cash demands, however.

 

[Bede]

What are our war plans?
Should we sign Porto to fight Spain as well...
That way they will spend extra military they have in 20+ turns we should be able to turn on them to get that iron.

I don't see a need to pull Portugal in as he hasn't hooked up his iron yet anyway.

As for the war plans I would let the eastern bloc fight it out and when Babylon has pissed away their Golden Age fighting against the Spanish take them down first and get the iron at Babylon instead.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

The in-betweener just doesn't help and leaves you wondering why you can't buy anything.

light bulbs go on...

Note on trading technique (as buyer): always before opening negotiations go to the F1 screen and set all sliders to 0 ( or you can leave entertainment where it is). Then make the best deal you can as you can always move the sldiers back up where they belong afterward

I do this too. I usually turn the research down when there's about 75 left in the bank in case of demands.

That's some nasty jungle to hack through for horses. Gonna need those 2 wheat.

@ Bede - nice work getting Hammi into his GA soon if he's not there already.

 

[Bede]

That's some nasty jungle to hack through for horses. Gonna need those 2 wheat.

Not so bad. Settle at the bend of the river. Then NW-NW-NW-SW (knight's move) and build there. Then NW-NW-NW-NW (knight's move on the other leg) and you only have two jungles to road and you have your horses. No need to cut anything as the citizens can go fishing.n Buy map making build a harbor and those towns are as productive as they are going to be for some time then just use them to build boats.

@ Bede - nice work getting Hammi into his GA soon if he's not there already.

A trip in Bede's Taurus (wasn't that what Dr Who called his conveyance?) reveals that Hammi kicked off his GA in 2670.

 

[dmanakho]

@Bede: Are you suggesting to push to get those horses before settling new cities anywhere else???

 

[Bede]

@Bede: Are you suggesting to push to get those horses before settling new cities anywhere else???

Just wanted to point out that they are there and accessible.

We are about out of room for new towns in as we are getting pushed from east and west. IIRC, don't have the map open, north and south are the only directions we have left.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Settle at the bend of the river. Then NW-NW-NW-SW (knight's move) and build there. Then NW-NW-NW-NW (knight's move on the other leg) and you only have two jungles to road and you have your horses. No need to cut anything as the citizens can go fishing.n Buy map making build a harbor and those towns are as productive as they are going to be for some time then just use them to build boats.

light bulbs going off again... I'm too linear and was thinking of a heroic worker effort to road there

Are you suggesting to push to get those horses before settling new cities anywhere else

Don't know about anywhere else, but definitely a high priority.

 

[dmanakho]

Ok sounds good..
I thought we were running of space...
We should start building markets one at a time and libraries only in cities that are at danger of flipping... Rest of our towns show start military production as soon as it makes practical sence...
Archers/some spears/some pults..
I really think we should declare on porto..
Take that iron town raze and replace it and make peace in 3 or 4 turns..
That will bring us iron much faster than if we went after Babylon.

Going for literature so soon probably means we are not getting Great library in this game.

 

[Mach]

Ok, I got it. I'll play it tomorrow night. Let's see, should be pretty straightforward turns -- build up Hattusha towards a worker farm, and military factories elsewhere. Settle toward those horses on the min-jungle-road plan. Start building libs in pressured cities. Be judicious with the workers. Turn down research when our gold reserves start getting too low. And stay out of trouble.

Should we settle toward the horses before we settle a coastal town on Old Red Dot? I think so...

For what it's worth, I agree with Bede -- attack the Babs first. They have better lands than Portugal, as well as spices.

 

[Bede]

Bede's argument against the GreatLib:

Great Library cost 400 shields yields 6cpt
Three libraries costs 240 shelds yields 9cpt.
Three marketplaces costs 300 shields yields zero cpt but raises commerce per roaded river tile by 1.

Great Library expires with Education and offers no boost to scientific output.

Three libraries in all those riverside towns will boost science output by 1 beaker for every river field roaded and worked (even in despotism, more in Republic). Add the same number of marketplaces and the return to the treasury goes up to pay for the libraries (again 1 gold piece for every river tile worked). Some of that money goes into research depending on where the science slider is set.

In short three libraries and three marketplaces will generate more net beakers than you will ever get from the Great Library over the course of the path to Education.

The key is only to build those improvements in towns where they will do the most good, say where gold lost to corruption is less than 30% or so.

 

[dmanakho]

Bede's arguments against Great Library are good (although i don't agree with all of them - Gr. Lib gives you techs right away when with 3 or more lib/markets you are dragging way behind AIs. Gr. Lib - superb source $$$ when you can resell the freebies to the rest of the world). I am not suggesting to build it. I truly believe training games should stay away from wonders.

But...
Great library is really good for something else - xOTMs where you can use all the "dirty" tricks.
Build G.Lib. put research to 0 and start collecting cash.
Before Chivalry use the cash to short rush horses
after chivalry (comes for free from G.L.) use cash to do "resource disconnect" trick to upgrade horses to knights.
With such a setup games up to DemiGod level usually won before you need Cavalry.

Again, We are playing a different game here, so I agree no Gr. Lib.
But, in production cities always build markets before libraries. Money before science in early ages (we've got to support that early republic we will become in a little while) and currently we should do it just one at a time.
once we hit our golden ages we will catch up with everything.

 

[Bede]

Gr. Lib gives you techs right away when with 3 or more lib/markets you are dragging way behind AIs. Gr. Lib - superb source $$$ when you can resell the freebies to the rest of the world).

But, in production cities always build markets before libraries. Money before science in early ages (we've got to support that early republic we will become in a little while) and currently we should do it just one at a time.
once we hit our golden ages we will catch up with everything.

I'll argue that with markets/libraires and the riverside fields we have here that we will not fall behind the other nations so long as we high power research and trade judiciously and boldly. And in my experience, aka IMHO, the Great Library is a poor source of trade bait due to the rich get richer effect. Yes you get free(?) knowledge but only after the value has been squeezed from it and the two wealthiest nations have already researched/purchased it. And you end up with chump change on this kind of map. Better to let somebody else build it and you pay the chump change.

The other thing I have noticed, but not quantified, is that when the human player builds the Great Library the tech pace slows down. This is probably related to the propensity of human players to feed gold into the world economy, a propensity diminished by the Great Library.

Now on an islands map the equation changes.

Concur that markets first is the way to build unless the border expansion is needed. Just remember that the flipping thing is not related as much to "local" culture as it is to "total" culture.

For what it's worth, I agree with Bede -- attack the Babs first. They have better lands than Portugal, as well as spices.

And the Babylonians will become the culture monster a lot faster than Portugal ever will. Not to mention the spices for my curry. And Russia only becomes a problem after the High Middle Ages.

 

[Mach]

Preflight -- Turn on notepad, MapStat, and Joan Jett. Pour scotch (rocks). Oh yeah, I'm ready to rule.

MM looks good, of course.
Machridates hits space.
(I) Hattusha worker --> granary
Babs discover Map Making

T1 (1725BC) -- Make this trade...

I hope that's ok, they wouldn't take anything less, but they're all techs that everyone else had, and I feel they would have gotten this stuff from someone else on the IT if I didn't do it. The Babs don't have horses, so I don't mind giving them HBR. They wouldn't give me gpt...
(I) Hattusas settler --> warrior

T2 (1700BC) -- found Ankuwa, start worker
(I) Hattusas warrior --> settler
Tarsus archer --> archer

T3 (1675BC) -- zzz
(I) zzz

T4 (1650BC) -- Dodging a barb warrior near the knight city spot
(I) zzz

T5 (1625BC) -- Warrior finds barb camp next to knight city spot. The nice Ports have sent help!
(I) Hattusas settler --> warrior
Tarsus archer --> archer
Ports built the Colossus in Lisbon, and a bit o' cascading follows.

T6 (1600BC) -- Our warrior takes out the barb camp.
(I) Hattusas warrior --> settler
Aleppo worker --> rax

T7 (1575BC) -- found Kadesh on knight spot, start worker
(I) Lit comes in, start const at breakeven (we're down to 59g)

T8 (1550BC) -- zzz
(I) Tarsus archer --> archer
Ugarit rax --> archer

T9 (1525BC) -- zzz
Hattusas settler --> warrior

T10 (1500BC) -- found Adana


Quiet turns. I leave an unmoved settler in Hattusas for the next player. F3 says there are barb tribes near Kadesh; that's where the warrior is going, to find it. Our population has outgrown our workers -- I think maybe the granary in Hattusha can be rushed soon, that should help. We are strong compared to the Babs. The Russians are down Map Making, which we could sell them for chump change. Er, that's all I can think of saying.

Machridates, he died old.

Home sweet home...

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Turn on notepad, MapStat, and Joan Jett. Pour scotch (rocks). Oh yeah, I'm ready to rule.

Are you sure you're not an idiot? This sounds like something I might do. Sorry to be insulting.

delayed reaction: didn't Dr. Who drive a phone booth? Weren't those rolling garbage cans ancestors of R2D2?

Need to consider this then post. As Sir Clive might put it, "I'm a bit knackered tonight; please, sir, may we have a dot map?"

 

[Mach]

Are you sure you're not an idiot?

Am I sure? I never admit to being sure about anything. Try talking to my girlfriend -- she'll talk your ear off on this topic.

Dotmap? Well, we're running out of room. Next city on the horses, then one SW-SW-SW of Tyrana. That's all the good spots I see. Maybe we can squeeze one in S of Aleppo in the forest; besides that, we have to clear marsh. We'll want one S of Babylon someday, after we own it, but right now that spot is too close to the Bab cultural boundaries. If I was me, I would settle the two cities, then convert Hattusas into military production...and clear space the hard way.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Try talking to my girlfriend -- she'll talk your ear off on this topic.

Been there, done that, I'm married.

 

[Minute Man]

Ports built the Colossus in Lisbon

I believe that's a Golden Age for Portugal. I think we should definitely attack Babylon first.

And, since there hasn't been a roster for a while:

Tubby Rower
dmanakho
Minute Man
Bede
Mach - just played
Admiral Kutzov - up!
eldar - on deck

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

got it, probably tonight.

 

[Bede]

Bede's research rant:

Put everything you can afford into the science budget as it buys you a discount when the AI out-researches you to a technology.

And I mean everything. Run a deficit until there is nothing left. Or put nothing at all. The in-betweener just doesn't help and leaves you wondering why you can't buy anything.

And break-even research (net gpt=0) will break you. It is the worst of the in-betweeners. You aren't piling up beakers fast enough and you aren't piling up any cash.

Remember that beakers are not lost when you shut research off in the middle. The "beaker bucket" remains when you close the spigot unless you change research projects.

That is why markets and libraries are important as both structures multiply the return on commerce.

Here endeth the lesson.

And it is time to start peddling Literature around, there is gold to be made and then you can turn the spending up again. It is also time to build archers and spears and pults. The towns on the Babylon border need bigger garrisons. Build a library in Tarsus BTW as it can make good use of those grasslands outside its borders. Put mines in the plains at Hattusha.