Tradition opening?

[TW_Honorius]

i did a test with 2 civs, arabia and russia. russia had better production than arabia. build order was scout > monument. At turn 44:

Russia: 24/120 14 turns until next sp. (liberty) +7 per turn
Arabia: 107/120 2 turns until next sp. (tradition > liberty) +8 per turn

each second city will get monument. the goal now is to get finish liberty first with 3 cities. the only real difference is beginning production for city which allowed russia to build monument faster in first 2 cities.

turn 86

russia 36/330 +10 with 30 turns remaining before liberty is finished.
arabia 222/330 +13 with 9 turns remaining before next to last liberty is constructed.

so we need to get 20 turns or less for the tradition > liberty to be faster.

turn 95 the finale

russia: 116/330 +10 22 turns to finish liberty
arabia: 9/465 +13 36 turns to finish liberty

so it seems going through liberty without going through tradition is the best. Of course no wonders/temples were built, no cs were bought. Hot seat game save is attached.

 

[vexing]

so it seems going through liberty without going through tradition is the best. Of course no wonders/temples were built, no cs were bought. Hot seat game save is attached.

the math is really straightforward. if you add in CS allies or temples or wonders, things start looking even better for pure liberty as every additional point of culture gained makes tradition's +3 relatively less significant.

 

[Atlas627]

There is no real right way or wrong way, so long as you're having fun, doing what you enjoy and are capable of winning doing it. Anything else is just refinement.

^This. This all the way. If there were a right decision we would have found and agreed on it and Firaxis would have had to fix it. Games are about decision making, and if in a strategy game such as Civilization we didn't have meaningful decisions, then the games industry should collapse overnight.

 

[JamesCivFan]

What about the strategies that involve the Legalism abuse for free Opera Houses/Museums? (I still think that free Opera Houses for faster Hermitage works better..someone correct me if I'm wrong).

Don't you waste turns by having to open tradition first, then choosing legalism? In other words, which is better? Opening it early, so at least that +3 culture per turn "counts" , or Going Liberty, Piety, Freedom and just as you are in the middle of freedom, going for Legalism?

 

[vexing]

What about the strategies that involve the Legalism abuse for free Opera Houses/Museums? (I still think that free Opera Houses for faster Hermitage works better..someone correct me if I'm wrong).

the same thing applies to legalism. choosing policies purely to speed up further policies doesn't work, unless your goal is more policies (ie a cultural win).
if you're going to use legalism for something useful (ie siam's wats or egypt's burial tombs) then yes, you want to start with tradition.
if you're going to finish all of tradition, that's a different story.

 

[TW_Honorius]

the math is really straightforward. if you add in CS allies or temples or wonders, things start looking even better for pure liberty as every additional point of culture gained makes tradition's +3 relatively less significant.

yes you are correct, just wanted to provide some solid evidence without dealing with too many variables, just the core culture in the beginning makes it obvious. plus 3 culture per turn x 100 = 300 culture towards a sp cost of 400+ to finish liberty makes it also kinda obvious.

 

[JamesCivFan]

the same thing applies to legalism. choosing policies purely to speed up further policies doesn't work, unless your goal is more policies (ie a cultural win).
if you're going to use legalism for something useful (ie siam's wats or egypt's burial tombs) then yes, you want to start with tradition.
if you're going to finish all of tradition, that's a different story.

Yes, I was talking about that exactly. A cultural victory. So you're saying that it's still better to go Liberty, taking probably up to representation, finishing Piety, opening Freedom and finishing it. Rather than stopping Freedom to take Tradition opener, Legalism, thus leaving Legalism for the Broadcast Towers, and Aristocracy for the Sydney Opera house?

 

[tnavres]

i did a test with 2 civs, arabia and russia. russia had better production than arabia. build order was scout > monument. At turn 44:

Russia: 24/120 14 turns until next sp. (liberty) +7 per turn
Arabia: 107/120 2 turns until next sp. (tradition > liberty) +8 per turn

each second city will get monument. the goal now is to get finish liberty first with 3 cities. the only real difference is beginning production for city which allowed russia to build monument faster in first 2 cities.

turn 86

russia 36/330 +10 with 30 turns remaining before liberty is finished.
arabia 222/330 +13 with 9 turns remaining before next to last liberty is constructed.

so we need to get 20 turns or less for the tradition > liberty to be faster.

turn 95 the finale

russia: 116/330 +10 22 turns to finish liberty
arabia: 9/465 +13 36 turns to finish liberty

so it seems going through liberty without going through tradition is the best. Of course no wonders/temples were built, no cs were bought. Hot seat game save is attached.

I like that you put up a test. I'm going to do the same.

However, to make the test more accurate, wouldn't it be better to run the same civ twice from the same start with ruins, barbs and any other factor that would jinx the results?

The two test should determine which opening allows for the best culture building. I could almost see a Tradition start and building Stonehenge could be viable for a Civ like India.

 

[acebelder]

Trad then liberty for the quick fast culture, then I grab my free settler, maybe then a free worker.
Depending on my terrain and resources and how good my 2nd city is at growing, I may choose wonder bonus.
Then, also depending on how fast I expand due to my terrain, I take the 33% culture discount which really helps you alot for cheaper policies. Especially if you have 3+ citites.
I save my 4 free culture buildings till I get philisophy, by that time I usually have 4 cities and get an instant +12 culture/turn from free temples.

 

[TW_Honorius]

i wanted to take all variables out because they could skew the results. no matter what you do in-game, culture gained is culture gained and its best to go straight liberty. you spend the culture on policies and its easy to see if you pick tradition, you slow your progress down. the only variable the thread is asking is tradition opener then all of liberty or just all of liberty. stonehenge in 2 identical games wont change the result if you tried both sp routes.

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

Tradition is a very powerful tree if the map accommodates, or even demands it.

The killer start with too many resources in the third ring, small land mass, no good city spots within double digit tiles are all ripe reasons to look at Tradition over Liberty.

I must say Honor is so much more fun than it used to be. Makes me tick the raging barbs checkbox!

 

[PimpmyCiv]

i wanted to take all variables out because they could skew the results. no matter what you do in-game, culture gained is culture gained and its best to go straight liberty. you spend the culture on policies and its easy to see if you pick tradition, you slow your progress down. the only variable the thread is asking is tradition opener then all of liberty or just all of liberty. stonehenge in 2 identical games wont change the result if you tried both sp routes.

but playing with 2 different Civs on 2 different maps (and starting locations) are huge variables right off the bat.

I'd also say having no barbs or huts would be essential. And the goal should be to finish liberty as quickly as possible not finish liberty within certain preconcived conditions (ie. build pattern). Building temples or Stonehenge along the way should be included IF it happens to be the 'quickest route' (but not just built for the sake of building them).

The extra tiles provided by tradition can add up real quick, especially when it means working and selling a lux/strat resource.

 

[MkLh]

Tradition is probably generally stronger tree on non-Deity levels. It greatly helps you getting your NC up as well as other early wonders. That ultra early free settler is really needed only on Deity.

 

[Ruler]

Immortal player and I usually prefer Traditional, only thing when I make an exception if capital spot isnt good or theres another city spot with 2 luxuries. Good capital can take you far, just make sure it grows fast.

 

[apocalypse105]

If I play as ramses I allways go tradition first to get even a bigger production bonus towerds wonders and build the great library and bolp philosophy then build national college and go into liberty.. From that point I will expand my empire and maybe build oracle maybe

 

[CrazyHorseSouix]

I've been experimenting with the tradition/honor combo lately (King). The problem is I find myself missing the Liberty free GP. I Tried to make up for it with wonders.

Having the Wonders DLC seems to make a difference, and I haven't had an ounce of trouble getting the Great Library, and Stonehenge seems to always be available later as well (for the GE point). Once I managed to time it well enough to get a GS and GE on the same turn. The problem is, doing it this way seems to take too long (doesn't materialize until turn 110 or later). I also have been using Legalism for monuments to speed up my early build order in cities.

My questions: Is there any way to speed up GP production (especially GS) early? Am I being too reliant on GPs? And should I take the time to hard build monuments and save legalism for later?

 

[TW_Honorius]

I've been experimenting with the tradition/honor combo lately (King). The problem is I find myself missing the Liberty free GP. I Tried to make up for it with wonders.

Having the Wonders DLC seems to make a difference, and I haven't had an ounce of trouble getting the Great Library, and Stonehenge seems to always be available later as well (for the GE point). Once I managed to time it well enough to get a GS and GE on the same turn. The problem is, doing it this way seems to take too long (doesn't materialize until turn 110 or later). I also have been using Legalism for monuments to speed up my early build order in cities.

My questions: Is there any way to speed up GP production (especially GS) early? Am I being too reliant on GPs? And should I take the time to hard build monuments and save legalism for later?

too reliant of gp, depends on what your plan them for. and also hagia sophia and national epic improves gp times.

 

[CrazyHorseSouix]

too reliant of gp, depends on what your plan them for. and also hagia sophia and national epic improves gp times.

I like to get a GS fairly early (as close to turn 100 as possible) to bulb a key tech (chivalry, steel, etc.) and I try to hit the Hagia -> PT chain every game. Perhaps this is a bad way to go about it though? Would I do better to focus on pumping out more settlers/works/regular buildings?

 

[binhthuy71]

To the War Academy!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=426274

To be honest, I've found recently that opening with one point in Honor and then hunting down barbarians gets me higher speed early policies with Liberty's GP being earned circa turn 100 on standard games quite regularly. (Without the Oracle.)

There is no real right way or wrong way, so long as you're having fun, doing what you enjoy and are capable of winning doing it. Anything else is just refinement.

Funny you should mention opening with Honor; I just started playing around with an Honor opener and then switch to the Liberty tree. So far, it seems to be not a flop (Particularly with the Aztecs). Now to take the same starts (Not with Aztecs) play each of the with and without the Honor opener to see if it offers any real advantages.

 

[Aspon]

depends on what your going for.

If you are going to have lots of war you really should go for Honor as it is far more effective.
if you planing on only ever having 3 or 4 cities the go for tradition to help you grow as big as possible in those cities and also get a boost to wonders. if your going for lots of puppet states then liberty one culture per city boost can be very effective.

I think generally it comes down to if you want to play short and tall Tradition is best if you want to spread far liberty is better. However I think Honor is usually preferable to both of them. Note if your playing as Arabia Liberty is a very nice policy to use with commerce as well. Try it you might like the gold.