Training game emphasizing trading - Emperor

[Rik Meleet]

The cost is 1165g for Chem. They won't take my gpt. Check the embassy. 846g for immediate steal.
From who? Izzie too much to risk. William not too bad. We are feared. If I steal Chem I can turn around and trade with Cathy.
We succeed.Take Chem. Trade Chem to Cathy for Nav. 68g, maps and a worker. My thinking is it will clear the fog if there's a physics or metallurgy trade later. Two techs for a net 778g and get a worker

1: What do we want ?
Techs !! We need them to catch up. But we don't want to spend a lot on them. Even before techs we want good trades.

2: Whomps trade.
The tech to steal was indeed Chemistry. The other available one was Navigation, but that was untradable as the top 4 already had it. Chem was only known to 2. Russia was the only civ that had a tech we didn't have -Nav- and lacked one of our techs -Chem-. The choice of trade was good.

3: The Timing.
Was it the right moment to trade? Or better: was it the right moment to steal ? I don't know; Greece still has many Monopoly techs we want. They don't want to give up on them for peace yet. However, waiting till they do is not bad. We can extort them for a good tradable tech and get a lot more out of it. By stealing a tech and using it to obtain 1 other, we might be blocking ourselves from far more profitable deals. And there is little danger we'll loose the chance as Greece holds 3 Monopoly techs.

4: The trading partner.
Well chosen. Not that hard as it was the only choice.

Rik's conclusion
I have tested a trade I wouldn't think of of doing in the game, just for test purposes. In 860 AD I made peace with Greece for Ecnomics, Music Theory and Printing Press for all of our cash + some gpt. I wouldn't have done it in a real game as it would break 3 alliances (which lasted 7 turns).

With those techs I could get tech-equality with nearly everyone (only Greece has Democracy I couldn't get. This shows that instead of a meager 1 tech for 1 tech there is potential for more - if we'd waited. As long as we keep pressure on Greece they will be eager to sign peace; perhaps giving up Monopoly techs for that. And those techs we could have used to obtain techs that are widely known. If the other nations would have gotten the Greek Monopoly techs they effectively made those techs cheaper for us, thus forcing Greece to give more of them, or ask less gold for them during peace negotiations.

Whomps trade stopped Russian research on Chemistry and made Chemistry a lot cheaper for Greece to obtain. And if they would have obtained it before the peace there was no harm done; another Greek tech for us to extort.

I would not have stolen Chem and not traded for Nav. We had a better chance of getting (monopoly) techs cheaply and better trades if we'd waited and gotten them with a Greek peace treaty.

Not a very good start whomp.

 

[Whomp]

Understood Rik. What you say makes sense. It accelerated the pace instead of slowed it down. Hopefully the team will compensate for this mistake.
A few questions...
Don't we still have the capability to get more techs out of Greece as we press this war? With Nav. it shortened our war route from 4 turns thru seas to 2 turns over the ocean to get our troops into Inch'on? Are you saying I should have paid gold to get the nav?

 

[Rik Meleet]

We certainly can extort Greece for techs, no problem. But those techs aren't monopoly-techs anymore (every big nation has them) thus we can't use them to trade to obtain more techs from other nations.

I don't consider Navigation a very important tech in this game as we already managed to get ships to Greece. We weren't doing a speedy invasion thus extra speed of the fleet gives us little extra benefit for the Greek war.

I wouldn't have obtained any tech (not even Nav) until we made peace with Greece. The techs we could have gotten with the peacetreaty (and some of our gold) could possibly be used to obtain the rest of the techs. And if they couldn't be used (for instance due to Greece trading them around) it would have reduced the cost of the techs so we would get them cheaper.

 

[Whomp]

OK I understand. I was too antsy and could've waited. The risk of the steal could've damaged our rep for trades as well. Lesson learned and thank you Rik.

 

[dl123654]

@peacemonger sorry should have picked better words

@all what do we want to do with the military leader?

 

[Whomp]

I think the palace jump idea makes good sense to increase income.
The only other question would be how many leaders before you get the Pentagon?

 

[dl123654]

Pentagon=3 armies

 

[Whomp]

I think Bede's suggestion to change the palace makes sense. Get those workers back in shape!

 

[dl123654]

Decided on the new palace in Carthago Novo, a lot of production potential, food bonus, in the middle of our continent, any thoughts?

 

[Bede]

Sounds good.

 

[dl123654]

Didn't like this turnset (No trades)

Preturn 950AD:
Why is Inch'on undefended?

IBT:
Japan&Greece vs Korea
Russia building Shakesphere

Turn 1 960AD:
Greece:War, Up Music,Demo,Eco,Phy,21gold, willing to give 30gpt for peace
Russia:Up Music,Demo,Eco,3gold
Spain:Up Music,Eco,0gold
Dutch:Up Music,Eco,Spices,86gold

IBT:
Retrade for furs
Greece wants peace for free

Turn 2 970AD:
ww is bad
Rush palace in Carthago Novo (high production, spread out from other cities, food bonus on on Bede's boarder of developed cities)
Greece:War, Up Music,Demo,Eco,Phy,96gold
Russia:Up Music,Demo,Eco,47gold
Spain:Up Music,Eco,0gold
Dutch:Up Music,Eco,Spices,204gold

Turn 3 980AD:
Palace finished in Carthago Novo
Don't like what it did, gpt dropped 200 to +100gpt, corruption stayed the same, guessing because we don't have markets/banks in now non corrupted cities and we don't have courts in use to be good cities
Raze Ephesus
Greece:War, Up Music,Demo,Eco,Phy,Metal,0gold
Russia:Up Music,Demo,Eco,Metal,0gold
Spain:Up Music,Eco,Demo,Metal,343gold
Dutch:Up Music,Eco,Metal,Spices,0gold

Turn 4 990AD:
Greece:War, Up Music,Demo,Eco,Phy,Metal,0gold
Russia:Up Music,Demo,Eco,Metal,5gold
Spain:Up Music,Eco,Demo,Metal,383gold
Dutch:Up Music,Eco,Metal,Spices,8gold

Turn 5 1000AD:
Raze Pharsalos had Magellan, raze Rhodes
Greece:War, Up Music,Demo,Eco,Phy,Metal,568gold
Russia:Up Music,Demo,Eco,Metal,24gold
Spain:Up Music,Eco,Demo,Metal,0gold
Dutch:Up Music,Eco,Metal,Spices,41gold
Have settlers on the way to build to get gems and iron

Turn 6 1010AD:
We lose our iron
Greece:War, Up Music,Demo,Eco,Phy,Metal,568gold
Russia:Up Music,Demo,Eco,Metal,24gold
Spain:Up Music,Eco,Demo,Metal,0gold
Dutch:Up Music,Eco,Metal,Spices,41gold

IBT:

Russia&Greece declare on us

Turn 7 1020AD:
Greece:War, Up Music,Demo,Eco,Phy,Metal,568gold
Russia:War
Spain:Up Music,Eco,Demo,Metal,Phy,0gold
Dutch:Up Music,Eco,Metal,Spices,41gold
Buy Spices from Dutch for 27gpt&10 gold

IBT:
Spain demands 100gold&TM, gives
Found New Rusicade, within range of Greece's Iron

Turn 8 1030AD:
Greece:War, Up Music,Demo,Eco,Phy,Metal,568gold
Russia:War
Spain:Up Music,Eco,Demo,Eco,Metal,Phy,0gold
Dutch:Up Music,Eco,Metal,65gold

IBT:
Spain&Russia vs Korea

Turn 9 1040AD:
Greece:War, Up Music,Demo,Eco,Phy,Metal,568gold
Russia:War
Spain:Up Music,Eco,Demo,Eco,Metal,Phy,0gold
Dutch:Up Music,Eco,Metal,65gold

IBT:
Dutch&Russia peace

Turn 10 1050AD:
Raze Halicarmassus

Notes:
Don't like what the palace transfer did
ww is very high right now, but gems will be online in 3 if the next person buys a harbor, iron online in 1 and a second in 4 (stealing from Greece)
Razed 5 Greece cities during this turn

 

[Whomp]

Great turns on the war front. It looks like we should've waited on the leader that's quite a hit. Too much irrigation and no banks should have made us wait to use our leader it seems.

 

[oopsy poopsy]

I think it's my turn and I'm gonna have to skip again. sorry guys.

 

[Bede]

peacemonger - up
plarq - on deck?
oopsy - if plarq can't
Bede - will fill in

 

[peacemonger]

ok, got it.

 

[Bede]

I think it is time for my Act of Contrition. I suggested the Palace move and continuing the war with Greece. Both bad recommendations as we now have a need for some massive micro-management, huge expenditure of worker turns to re-trim the terrain and a war that we will have difficulty prosecuting to a better then so-so conclusion because of those two factors.

However, from my perspective as TGOMTG we will all have an opportunity over the next sets to exercise and refine our "How do we get out of this mess?" skills. Fortunately we still have a good bankroll which will give us room to move....

 

[peacemonger]

I'm not seeing our mili collected anywhere for another offensive; am inclined to just end the Greek war ASAP. We can get both Physics and Metallurgy for the peace at near or better than steal rates, but that's giving a good chunk (2089) of gold to an already rich Greek treasury. Thoughts?

 

[Bede]

I'm not seeing our mili collected anywhere for another offensive; am inclined to just end the Greek war ASAP. We can get both Physics and Metallurgy for the peace at near or better than steal rates, but that's giving a good chunk (2089) of gold to an already rich Greek treasury. Thoughts?

If that's the case then close it out once the settlers have established themselves in the open territory around Inchon. And a harbor is rushed in Inchon. When I looked at the save most of the troops were pretty well chewed up so it's not a matter of collecting it is a matter of rebuilding the army.

That should give us a window to straighten out the mess I made and get some more troops on the other big landmass, and/or finish off the Japanese and the two Russian towns so at least we have control of the island.

 

[peacemonger]

I lost my notes for the first half. Essentially I changed a few builds, rushed a couple harbors in war sites and got a couple settlers on their way, made peace with Greece in the first turn for Physics and Metallurgy for 2089. Was able to bring lux down to zero and fire most specialists. Spain and Greece both up ToG, and by 3rd or 4th turn Greece has a lock on Magnetism too, so they are still a beast. I’d like to rest from the WW for a while, rebuild infrastructure and amass more troops and then consider a tech steal from Greece.

It’s now 1090, and I’ll pick up the log again. Some land improvements and MM.

IBT
Russians are building Newtons. They’ve just dropped some troops near New Hardremetum and New Oea. These sites are our gem source, and they are inadequately defended.

T5 1100
We are one MDI up against 2 knights and an elite MDI. Russia is finally willing to talk peace, and her negotiations will get tougher if she takes New Had in the next turn. Right now she’ll give her bank (53) plus 3gpt to get out of the war. Her price for ToG is 70gpt, at least a 15gpt discount off market prices and better than careful steals. However, when I checked market for ToG it looked like Spain had just picked up Magnetism. It’s price at 3rd is 95gpt, but by doing it as a renegotiation of Peace with Spain along with renegotiation of our iron for 27gpt trade, I can get Magnetism for 24gpt plus iron. Ok, done. Russia is the only partner now where we can get ToG for Magnetism, so that will go into her peace deal along with whatever else we can finagle. She won’t give ToG plus Econ without us sweetening the pot, but I bet we can get that from William pretty easily. So just ToG and her cash of 53g. Now, William. Actually, he’s got nothing we need right now – Econ is not worth this trade -- and I expect we will have the leverage with him for a bit. So, that will wait.

IBT, Greece and Netherlands sign peace.

T6 1110
Greece and Russia both have steam power and medicine now. I expect each got one on t the promote to the IA and they swapped. Greece is as rich as we are, to boot, so they’ll probably buy any new tech on the market if someone can actually beat them to it. Really need to consider prepping for another military offensive against Greece I think when the peace deal runs out. Knossos/Pamploma to cut off their remaining resources, Sparta if we can handle 2 frontlines for the dyes. That ought to slow them down. What’s our overall game objective? Maybe just pushing through Japan and Russia, easier targets, toward a domination win is better. Team to figure that out in the next couple turnsets.

T7 1120
Consider furs for incense and gold with Russia, but not sure we want to keep feeding her economy at this point, plus our happiness is ok for now.

IBT, We lose wines – its price goes up to 40gpt (or 800 cash, but I’d rather Spain take our credit), and I am ok with that. Catherine wants an alliance against the Koreans but won’t give us anything for it. We pass. Greeks are building Newton’s, and Russia has finished Shakes Theater.

T8 1130
More working of land.

T9 1140
More of same.

IBT, William thinks Music Theory for Magnetism is a fair trade. Nope. We’re still just average against him militarily – think about cutting a reasonable deal soon just to avoid demands from him.

T10 1150
Greece has just learned Nationalism. We are no longer strong against any of the powerhouses. We need to balance infra builds with mili, and figure out what to do about the tech pace.

 

[Whomp]

It may be useful to eliminate Japan. They are no help on the tech front, give us more land and opportunities to get more leader armies for the eventual war with Greece. Question is can we handle the WW. Any thoughts on this?