Turn Discussion Thread

[BLubmuz]

I think your option 2) is not doable, since BW can't probably be researched by the time we can use the whip for the worker.
Also, without a granary i don't like to use the whip to have the CAPITAL again at size 1 after some 20 turns.

I think the best way to use our financial trait is research AH-writing while building a second WB and a worker after it. then a warrior or an exploring WB (which we can use later for another seafood if we discover it) and a settler once at size 3.

and a library somewhere, maybe instead of the warrior, or right after the settler.

 

[AlphaShard]

For some reason my Internet browsers (IE and Firefox) are both refusing to work right now. I am posting from my iPod touch. Anyways I moved warrior 1sw and found 2 fish one in the south coast and the other on the west coast. Now the warrior will go north just wondering if it should be straight or zig zag. Also the entire south coast is revealed.

This is making me rethink the city placement with more seafood. I will get this screenshot up some how.

 

[Trystero]

I am also not crazy about whipping the first worker. I won't have time to play through many test games in the next ciouple of days, but I ran some calculations earlier, and found that we'd finish the WB 3 turns before we could whip the worker. Also, since we are Financial, I think more commerce earlier would be a good way to exploit our trait. That makes me think we want to mine the gold sooner. Being on the island I think an early boost to our research (via commerce) would be more beneficial than an early production boost.

 

[AlphaShard]

I vote for second workboat and working the fish tile to make our city grow to level 3 when the boat is done.

 

[Trystero]

Wow, We've moved again already? That's two turns in the last 12 hours. AlphaShard, although there was nothing particularly controversial with your move, you might want to slow down a bit and let people in other timezones get a chance to chime in. This will be especially true now that we are close to deciding what the next build will be, and I don't think we've reached a consensus on that topic yet.

 

[AlphaShard]

Oh I understand, I'm rather surprised we got to move this much, but at least we have time to decide our next build, which tile to work and it would be good to vote for next Tech as well.

Spoiler :

 

[Irgy]

I'm fairly sure someone has already checked that bronzeworking will come in time to do it, although we need to confirm this of course. Easy enough to do with someone's worldbuilder game. It may not come before we start on the worker, but it should come in time to revolt (mid worker build) and whip.

Blubmuz: Your suggestion isn't actually all that different from option 2, it's just the tech path and the whip. The whip is definately worthwhile, even without a granary. While building a worker, we get 1 food -> 1 hammer. The whip at pop 3->2 without a granary gets us 24 food -> 30 hammers. Because we build the worker sooner, we start using food as food again sooner, and we finish up completely replacing the whipped food during the time we would otherwise have spent converting food to hammers anyway building the worker. We grow back very quickly with two fish, so the hammers we lose by having 1 less population aren't more than the hammers we gain from the better food hammer conversion of whipping. So basically the worker turns come pretty much for free.

We lose a turn of anarchy for slavery, but I honestly think we'll want to whip more in the near future anyway. 3-pop whipping a settler for instance is often a very efficient move.

It's worth getting bronze working early for chopping if nothing else. The library will take a lot of turns if we don't either whip or chop it, so bronze before writing doesn't delay the library by as much as it might at first appear. Working the gold sooner thanks to the worker whip will pay back some of bronze working's beakers as well.

To no-one in particular: Honestly, the argument shouldn't be about the micro at all. It's not immediately obvious that it would be, but the numbers show the workboat->workboat->whip worker option (credit to azzaman for coming up with it by the way, it wasn't my idea) is genuinely the best option for food/hammers. If someone wants to dispute that then they really need to do the math or run a practise game to back it up, as working out the details trumps general intuitions about these things.

The argument should mostly be about the relative values of 35 food/hammers and 34 beakers. Will the beakers lead to the techs we need to pay for REX, or will food and hammers give us population that will eventually replace the beakers?

The issue of whether hammers or beakers will hold up the library more is one relatively nearby critical point, although there's a lot of different paths to it, and it still depends what we prioritise the library over.

 

[dima42]

I'm fairly sure someone has already checked that bronzeworking will come in time to do it, although we need to confirm this of course. Easy enough to do with someone's worldbuilder game. It may not come before we start on the worker, but it should come in time to revolt (mid worker build) and whip.

Confirmed.

Also, strongly seconding that WB>WB>WhipWorker is the best start to this game. This is the sort of thing that shouldn't be settled by a poll, but rather should be settled by the best ideas worked out in math.

 

[AlphaShard]

Yes I've whipped the hell out of my cities in Marathon and that Speed really punishes you with 30 turns per . It is workable and I can attest to how quickly you can build things with enough food and Granary in place. If we don't micro (Fish and 3H Hill) then we will be at level 3 when Worker is ready to be built. Also the workboat will take 15 turns and Bronzeworking 11.

 

[BLubmuz]

Your arguments seems solid, just some test to verify and i can subscribe them.

 

[dima42]

Hi,

I am proposing the following challenge.
Play the attached save until you have a library built while not prioritizing it over a second city (you must have at least two cities and two workers by when your library is complete)

Post results with turn you have accomplished this, number of forests chopped, and the research situation you are currently at.

Edit: My first run at this had me done with a library on turn 47, with production having been four workboats, two workers, a settler, and a library. I am 270/373 research on mathematics, which I arbitrarily chose after writing. I skipped AH, although that is still for debate. I chopped two forests, and have not poprushed anything aside the first worker.

Edit: I apologize that the flood plains are 4 food instead of 3. I'll fix that soon, not that it really matters. Reedit: fixed

 

[Lord Parkin]

I'm dubious about whipping the Worker, but I'll have to run some tests later.

I think it was mentioned somewhere earlier, but just to confirm, I'm opposed to building a Settler until we're size 4. It's a huge waste if we're not working one of the Gold tiles while we build it.

 

[dima42]

I'm dubious about whipping the Worker, but I'll have to run some tests later.

I think it was mentioned somewhere earlier, but just to confirm, I'm opposed to building a Settler until we're size 4. It's a huge waste if we're not working one of the Gold tiles while we build it.

Agreeing. Settler should not be built until pop 4.

 

[AlphaShard]

That is easily doable even if we have to make extra warriors or wb to do so.

 

[champinoman]

I guess it will be a workboat for exploring as we don't need more than the initial warrior for a while yet.

 

[Methos]

Next build I'm inclined towards WB. Warrior should move SE to clear out the remaining water, as everyone else has already stated. I agree with the clockwise motion of our warrior though.

 

[wabatt]

I am proposing the following challenge.
Play the attached save until you have a library built while not prioritizing it over a second city (you must have at least two cities and two workers by when your library is complete)

I got the library done on turn 40, made 3 work boats, two workers, a settler.
tech- mining>BW>AH>writing>wheel>36/119 pottery (dont know much about tech order so this could probbly be better) Chopped 3 forests no whip

 

[AlphaShard]

The turn changed again, I didn't move the Warrior yet, I did add the WB but we can still change it if needed.

 

[Lord Parkin]

I noticed that CDZ's score went up from 33 to 39. Did their capital grow? Did they finish a tech? If so, it'd have to be a cheap tech. They started with Fishing and Hunting, so it'd have to be something else. Any thoughts?

 

[Trystero]

Before I run test games, can I ask what our short term goal is here? Deciding what to build or tech next depends on what that goal actually is. In dima42's challenge the goal is build a library ASAP after getting a second city, but it would be better if we agree on what actually is our immediate goal (or goals). Is it a library ASAP? Research Sailing ASAP? Get a Work Boat our for exploration? Hook up and work both gold hills?

I guess what I am asking for is establishing a short term set of priorities. What is the most important thing we do right now? That would greatly aid my thinking about this game, and how to run tests. Thanks.