Turn Discussion

[DMOC]

Excuse me guys, is there anyone who can pause the game? No one from team Saturn (myself included) has a window of opportunity to play soon. Someone else is occupying the computer I use for CIV for an important reason, and I'm not sure when Lord Parkin or Plako can play. No one else from our team has spoken about playing either, since we're a three man team now.

 

[Krill]

Right, this whole discussion is because we've "screwed up" and are "playing badly"?! uh huh

Straw man.

Spoiler :

You knew about this tactic, and yet didn't consider it's application against you. What's the option other than "screwing up"? Oh yeah; you consider it an "exploit" even though it isn't. You want the rule changed to give yourselves an advantage that at present you don't have, and you publish your thoughts immediately after realising the fact.

The original point has been argued and I don't see a refutation...just a double standard. Do you not see it?

I think Daveshack is right - we're not getting anywhere with this discussion. I'll try and right a proposed rule change up tomorrow and teams can vote on it.

I see a lack of refutation. If you can refute the arguments do so and the discussion will work out.

 

[Krill]

Excuse me guys, is there anyone who can pause the game? No one from team Saturn (myself included) has a window of opportunity to play soon. Someone else is occupying the computer I use for CIV for an important reason, and I'm not sure when Lord Parkin or Plako can play. No one else from our team has spoken about playing either, since we're a three man team now.

Niklas has paused the game for you, DMOC.

 

[DMOC]

Thanks.

The pause isn't for me, it's for the team as a whole. We just don't have a turnplayer available as of now. Sorry again for the inconvenience.

 

[Niklas]

Krill, I definitely don't see a double standard. I will gladly refute your (and Memphus') points, but I was told not to, and then I haven't had time. Tomorrow...

 

[Memphus]

Krill, I definitely don't see a double standard.

That is easier for you to say. (As team Cav, then team KAz) As From the posts in here it hasn't been made known that Cav ever used the Micro Management (illeged exploit) strategy. Kaz on the other hand has. So while it makes sense for You and Cav to state that you see it as an exploit, for Kaz to do it is being hypocritical and like Krill pointed out in voilation of rule 4.2.

I will gladly refute your (and Memphus') points, but I was told not to, and then I haven't had time. Tomorrow...

Should brighten up my day at work. I enjoy civil debates!

 

[cav scout]

Memphus- Kaz has never shifted our tech choice to foil the espionage point component of the game. No one has enough points to see our tech so how could we?

 

[Memphus]

Memphus- Kaz has never shifted our tech choice to foil the espionage point component of the game. No one has enough points to see our tech so how could we?

So you don't need enough to see other items of the game...

=Kaleb]We did a little bit of 'shuffling' early in the game for a couple of turns but gave up on it after an internal discussion.

So this shuffling (depending what you did) would change your GNP at a minimum, on the demo's screen which is the default of the game. (for those that understand it)Which for other teams watching could mean you teching faster or slower, changing techs to where you have more bonuses etc, thus throwing them off.

As far as goes though from what I can tell we are ~95% on predicting what tech each team is researching at any given time, based on the demo's screen and it's full understanding. So by 'shuffling' you circumvented that mechanic.

What we need to realize here is there are advantages and disadvantages to this game type. One other advantage (that everyone just ignores each time i bring up) is the "bonus" turn of Bureau for Kaz. That also wouldn't be possible on PBEM or simultaneous turns...but no one is touching that one?

So to me if we press this further, where does it stop? No tech trade unless it is your turn? Then What? No Logging in unless it is your turn? I realize this is pushing the extreme, but that is where we will get to.

 

[DaveShack]

Moderator Action: I think there is nothing to gain by endlessly discussing this. If a team wants to bring forward a rule proposal in its own thread, then please do so.

 

[cav scout]

You are making a false analogy (comparing apples and oranges).

Micro to obscure the demographics screen is different than micro to subvert a key component of the espionage system.

The demo screen is not part of the bts espionage system (it isn't under the button for one thing). Broadly defining as whatever you want it to be (instead of the clearly understood in-game system) is just ducking out of the argument in my opinion.

And the "where does this stop?" argument is a slippery slope fallacy.

 

[azzaman333]

You are making a false analogy (comparing apples and oranges).

Micro to obscure the demographics screen is different than micro to subvert a key component of the espionage system.

The demo screen is not part of the bts espionage system (it isn't under the button for one thing). Broadly defining as whatever you want it to be (instead of the clearly understood in-game system) is just ducking out of the argument in my opinion.

And the "where does this stop?" argument is a slippery slope fallacy.

I don't see how they are fundamentally different. They both take advantage of the nature of sequential turns pitboss to mislead the other civs.

 

[Sommerswerd]

What about a rule that team members can only log in during their own turn? This seems easy to track through civstats... Would this rule be too cumbersome? Ineffective? Unfair? I am curious...

 

[Kaleb]

That won't work, teams need to login sometimes outside their own turn.

And this whole double 'standards' thing is a nonsense. We shuffled for a couple of turns a long while back and decided it was cheese and have not done any shuffling since. If we had been making an ongoing concerted effort up until now then I can see how you could make that argument. But I think you're clutching at straws..

The fact you are c95% accurate on predicting what other teams are teching from demo screen alone probably means all the other teams are not shuffling their tech priority around like you are. If they were, you wouldn't be that accurate would you?

 

[Indiansmoke]

What we need to realize here is there are advantages and disadvantages to this game type. One other advantage (that everyone just ignores each time i bring up) is the "bonus" turn of Bureau for Kaz. That also wouldn't be possible on PBEM or simultaneous turns...but no one is touching that one?

I don't see the difference Memphus.

It is 200bc for example we play our turn..it is still 200bc Cav play and discover CS, after ending turn they offer it. It is now 150bc (next turn) we accept and revolt...so we actually used the tech next turn not same turn.

In simultanious turns it would be like this. 200bc Cav discover CS, 150bc they offer we accept same turn we use it 150bc.

So where is the difference?

 

[Krill]

For Parkin: You can't exit diplomacy screens in a pause. You have to unpause the game before you enter, the repause after leaving the screen.

I don't see the difference Memphus.

It is 200bc for example we play our turn..it is still 200bc Cav play and discover CS, after ending turn they offer it. It is now 150bc (next turn) we accept and revolt...so we actually used the tech next turn not same turn.

In simultanious turns it would be like this. 200bc Cav discover CS, 150bc they offer we accept same turn we use it 150bc.

So where is the difference?

Because the tech is discovered after ending the turn; the tech is offered in Kazs' turn, not in Cavs. The tech can't be traded until after the turn roll. It's an out of turn action, just like changing tech is...

The fact you are c95% accurate on predicting what other teams are teching from demo screen alone probably means all the other teams are not shuffling their tech priority around like you are. If they were, you wouldn't be that accurate would you?

*shrug* We're more than happy to see other team hiding their research, and taking counterespionage actions. If it makes us less accurate, that just shows the standard of play of our opponents is improving, and why would we be unhappy with that?

 

[Indiansmoke]

Because the tech is discovered after ending the turn; the tech is offered in Kazs' turn, not in Cavs. The tech can't be traded until after the turn roll. It's an out of turn action, just like changing tech is...

Krill...come on... this is basic stuff...The "turn" is the year..not the individual turn of each team. So it is exactly the same as simultanious turns...one turn (year) you discover tech next you trade...

 

[Memphus]

Krill...come on... this is basic stuff...The "turn" is the year..not the individual turn of each team. So it is exactly the same as simultanious turns...one turn (year) you discover tech next you trade...

Correct. But this is how the game works (in a non-simultaneous game):

Cav Discover Civil Service
They can't trade it until thier next turn.
Therefore they can revolt to Bureau before any other team.


However Because we are playing simultaneous this happens:

Techs can be traded after MS end turn (that is the "turn roll")
Cav Log in and Trade CS to Kaz. (after MS end turn, but before Kaz do)
Kaz revolted on thier turn. (Before CAV could) and as such got a "bonus" turn of Bureau.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Correct. But this is how the game works (in a non-simultaneous game):

Cav Discover Civil Service
They can't trade it until thier next turn.
Therefore they can revolt to Bureau before any other team.


However Because we are playing simultaneous this happens:

Techs can be traded after MS end turn (that is the "turn roll")
Cav Log in and Trade CS to Kaz. (after MS end turn, but before Kaz do)
Kaz revolted on thier turn. (Before CAV could) and as such got a "bonus" turn of Bureau.

Not sure what you are saying. In simultanious turns and turn based turns it works like I said. Your example is PBEM? If it is PBEM then the problem is with PBEM type game not the one we are playing...

 

[Memphus]

Not sure what you are saying. In simultanious turns and turn based turns it works like I said. Your example is PBEM? If it is PBEM then the problem is with PBEM type game not the one we are playing...

Yup I agree 100%, and am not saying it shouldn't have been done. I am using it as another example.

This is an artifact of the sequential pitboss nature of the game, which doesn't show up in simultaneous or PBEM modes and thus definitely falls under the category of "exploit".

Spoiler :

Agree on PBEM. Disagree on Simultaneous turns, you just have to be quick.

And in Simultaneous and Turn Based you can do the Micromanagment Strategy to hide your research. You can't in the PBEM. The PBEM is broken, as I said before.

Spoiler :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8181535&postcount=495

We Chose Sequential (incorrectly posted simultaneous before) Turns. As such take note of what can and can't be done, and use that to maximize your teams strategy.

 

[Lord Parkin]

For Parkin: You can't exit diplomacy screens in a pause.

I'm aware of that.

You have to unpause the game before you enter, the repause after leaving the screen.

Not sure how you can unpause the game yourself before entering it.

But yes, you can of course get someone else to unpause.

We Chose Simultaneous Turns. As such take note of what can and can't be done, and use that to maximize your teams strategy.

Not sure why you keep saying it's simultaneous turns. It's a sequential turn game, and due to the pitboss nature players can log in at any time. Maybe it's just semantics, but I think it's important not to call it a "simultaneous turn game", because it isn't. By definition, simultaneous turn games operate differently to the one we're playing here.