Turn Discussion

[CharlemagneXLII]

No worries about the screenies, the turn was played and that's what counts. Maybe we should go to peace with Merlot, they will still be affected by the double rule move in their war against Amazon. Unfortunately, I will not be able to consistently be able to play the turns, especially with the 20-hour window. If you need me to play one or two though that should be doable if you give me a day's notice.

For the warrior, combat I is probably best, unless we expect to have him in lots of jungle. We should probably do that now since he's wounded, and there is another barb nearby.

 

[cav scout]

I could probably play for a month if Charlemagne could back me up.

Edit: I just noticed we lost a turn on founding Asymptote by parking the galley directly sw of Resonance and picking up the warrior... we are still headed to the new Asymptote right?

For the warrior I suppose combat 1 would be alright. But woodsman 2 would be good too, especially if we let barbs attack us when we are on jungle tiles to suck up the experience for wood 2. The important thing is to avoid any combat unless we are in jungles!

My vote is to save the promo and run like hell to the west to get into the jungle. We then promote to wood 1 and heal in place before continuing. If we we find ourselves next to a new barb while enroute we promo to combat 1 and hope for the best.

 

[galdarian]

Keep in mind it was also about dropping off the Worker.

I think that we should build a Granary after the next worker in Continuum for two reasons. The most obvious being that it's a granary and it will help us grow. It will also allow Continuum to grow to size 8 which is manageable as we get the +1 from bananas and +1 from wheat with the granary.

What is the plan for Asymptote's and Singularity's builds?
We should be building up a bank once we've finished Compass until we are gifted Machinery. Do we know how much it will cost to upgrade a Trireme to a Caravel?

PS> Tag Cav_Scout. You're it!

 

[cav scout]

Keep in mind it was also about dropping off the Worker.

The Worker could have been dropped off S of Resonance and still moved to the bananas in the same amount of time. No worries though, just pointing out an optimization thing for future situations. (oh and while i'm at it we should have switched to Monarchy the same time as Organized Religion- you can switch up to 2 civics with only 1 turn of anarchy. We will wait now for the Bureaucracy switch since we are fine happiness wise).

I think that we should build a Granary after the next worker in Continuum for two reasons... What is the plan for Asymptote's and Singularity's builds?
We should be building up a bank once we've finished Compass

As far as builds I think we should be primarily focused on rapid expansion until we have our first 8 cities. After that we can worry about infastructure. Yes we should do a granary in each city and maybe a barracks in Singularity. But everything else should be settlers, workers, garrison units and the 2 circumnavigation ships. Definitely no banks yet.

 

[Earthling]

We don't have the techs for banks, but that was funny on both your parts - he meant regarding the science/gold slider, we won't be 100% all the way to Optics since we have to wait on Machinery and are building up some gold.

As for cities - Continuum definitely needs a granary, it's the first building I'd build once we start on buildings. And I see viable reasons that we could do that soon - granary and trireme (to upgrade), take us to about size 9 in a reasonable amount of time and then back to settler/worker. We should still have 5-6 cities before all that, and I think it's worth it to get a little more infrastructure befores cities 7, 8, etc... since those are further away, the Indian petal and elsewhere.

I really wish I could say for sure the Caravel upgrade cost, ought to check I guess. It should be around 3x the difference in hammers between freshly building the units though, and thus probably <50 gold on Normal speed if memory serves correctly. So 100 gold for two caravels seems doable.

We also should consider resource trades with our allies. If we have trade routes, we can trade resources. At the very least CDZ should have a connection that can't be cut off by MERLOT/Maverick enemy action. (and remember that great investigation some of you did before, regarding war and trade routes ) Getting +1 health/happy each should be rather easy for both parties involved.

 

[TyBoy]

If the cities aren't going to grow several pop right after the granary is finished they're not that big a deal. For a city that is near its happiness or food caps the granary does very little. Similarly, finishing a granary then pumping out settlers/workers doesn't get any mileage out of the granary that you wouldn't get building it later on.

In new cities if they're well fed whipping a granary ASAP works pretty well. If you don't whip it the city often grows too close to its happiness cap for the granary to do much. We have a high happiness cap right now though, so maybe that doesn't apply as it might in a more traditional single player game.

P.S. Do we really need to be adhering to the wartime turnplaying rules right now? While we are technically at war, as far as I know there isn't a Merlot unit in sight and we certainly aren't making any plans for further aggression. It seems reasonable to me to just continue playing normally for now and go back to wartime rules if we see any more Merlot units we might fight with. The rule is only in place to prevent abuses of the simultaneous turnplaying. As long as we avoid that we should be able to play anytime in the turn that works for us.

 

[Earthling]

I probably need to login and just look around to get a feel of things again. I'm pretty sure I'm ok with our tech plan, expanding to the 6 or so cities we have marked out, which means three on the CDZ petal plus Singularity. After that I'm just not sure whether we quickly pick up city #4 on island, go to the Indian side, and so on. Also, Quatron could feasibly build settlers/workers soon enough too. However we work it, I also agree that getting 2 triremes => Caravel by the time we get Optics is the right call - that could be longer on than I'm guestimating though, leaving us more time for other builds.

But more important in this post, I think is this question:

P.S. Do we really need to be adhering to the wartime turnplaying rules right now? While we are technically at war, as far as I know there isn't a Merlot unit in sight and we certainly aren't making any plans for further aggression.

I think the answer is yes, they made it clear, while we hadn't really thought of this beforehand, the admins seem to be enforcing it for us, MERLOT, and the AMAZONs. It is rough, I agree, perhaps a reason to talk peace (no real cost to peace or war right now anyway) but we do have to roll with it. One remedy for us, is to not hit "end turn" all the time if the turns go by too fast for the turnplayer. We have to move units at the start, but we could let the "end turn" go for more of the 48 real-time hours, instead of running the risk that all the other teams end-turn fast too and we don't have time to discuss things.

 

[RegentMan]

We just need to make sure, if we do end the war with Merlot, there are no Merlot boats nearby. With an in-game ten turn peace treaty, we wouldn't be able to stop their boats from making contact with the mavericks.

At least until our culture covers the water.

Huge if our culture already does...

 

[galdarian]

Resonance will border pop in about 4T which will bridge the culture between the Isle of Quatronia and the Main Land so this should not be an immediate concern. That and it takes a total of 14T to cross our waters tip to tip, plenty of time to smash them.

I would be more concerned that Mavs sailed past and we are yet to see CDZ declare war and sink their WB.

 

[cav scout]

For next turn I'm planning on:

1. Moving the exploring warrior SW into the jungle to heal. Should we promote to combat II, wood I or save it?

2. Founding Asymptote and starting granary.

3. Moving DeNile back near Continuum.

4. Concentrating island warriors in Continuum (minus Quatron garrison).

5. 2 pop whip the trireme in Quatron with 20 overflow into the next trireme.

6. Moving Quatron worker W and roading the plantation.

 

[galdarian]

I would wait and see if there is a barb whom might attack after a move otherwise save the promo for now.
DeNile needs to move one warrior to Resonance.
Is that a Melot WB S of Asymptote?
West to road the plantation or East?

Agree with whipping the Trireme and I would then move it to Asymptote.

If the cities aren't going to grow several pop right after the granary is finished they're not that big a deal. For a city that is near its happiness or food caps the granary does very little. Similarly, finishing a granary then pumping out settlers/workers doesn't get any mileage out of the granary that you wouldn't get building it later on.

Building the granary is more about allowing the growth (to pop 9) whilst building something we need. It's just as relevant to build a library however would you build a library before a granary?

 

[cav scout]

DeNile will take one or more warriors over to resonance when it gets back to Continuum.

The ship to the south is the Amazons other workboat.

I was planning on roading the eastern spice (the one closer to Continuum) as this will hook the spice into our network right away. The worker can then focus on Singularity.

About Granaries- I think TyBoy's point is it doesn't make sense to build something if its just going to sit idle for a while. Better to build something that will have utility right away. I can certainly think of situations where building a library before a granary would make sense. Yes a granary first often is often the best choice for many cities. But just because it's the most common first building doesn't mean we have to be locked into always building it first by rote. In the case of Continuum we don't really need a granary right away if we are still going to churn out settlers/workers (clams and bananas will take care of the health shortly).

 

[MrBanana]

We should think about a library before the granary in Continuum, we'd get 10.5 beakers out of it.

 

[CharlemagneXLII]

Granaries are more useful when you build them first thing. The thing is, it is never the first thing you build in your capital, in fact you don't end up considering to build one in your capital until quite a while into the game, as is the case here. Continuum has already grown to size 7 without it and will grow to size 8, and then some, before its finished. If our cap right now is pop 9, then we are not actually getting much of a benefit from it, except for the health bonus, which won't be needed until we hit size 9.

I'm not sure about a library. On one hand, we'll get to optics faster, we'll get more beakers, and a scientist if we want, but on the other hand, we'll be lowering the slider and therefore getting less beakers. We might not even WANT optics faster, we need to build those triremes and position them, and bank some gold. So, I suggest either a trireme or library next.

 

[Bowsling]

You can still build triremes after optics.
I think we should get a library, and then build a caravel ASAP in Continuum.
The reason for that being circumnavigation. The +1 move well be excellent, and we especially also need to keep it out of the hands of CDZ.

 

[cav scout]

Triremes do upgrade to caravels and we will have 2 of them shortly from Quatron. We will time it so one each is positioned at our eastern and western cultural limits when we hit Optics. We will have enough gold (~100?) saved up to upgrade immediately and then set out next turn.

So if we are the ones to tech Optics that's a guaranteed circumnavigation bonus for us.
-----------------

About granaries: they are hugely beneficial in cities where we plan to crack the whip (which is all of em except Continuum). So every cities we found should have a granary as it's first build. Continuum will largely be spared the whip and should only build a granary when we are finished building workers and settlers there and ready to grow.

 

[galdarian]

Continuum
The Facts:
4/34 toward growth

6 - 7
9 - 7

Production is +5 and +8

60 hammers for a Granary
90 hammers for a Library


The Analysis:
With OR we get +25% or 2 hammers extra which means Granary and Library are 6T and 9T respectively. This assumes that we don't change the current tiles that are being worked. We still have 5T for the current settler and we really need another worker which is another 6T if my maths is right. This puts us about half way thru Optics so Optics will not see the benefit for a library at all. Bananas will be hooked into the network in ~5T eliminating the unhealthy city and Clams roughly the same time (8 health). Growth would take 5T ( (34-4) = 30 / 6 surplus = 5T).

Turn 1 after worker: 10/34 4 surplus (Granary)
T2: 16 14 (Whip 2 pop = 2x30 + 25% = 75 hammers) Continuum Size5: -2 tiles = Southern Cottage & Spices
T3: 21 29 (Library)
T4: 26 39 (10 in granary, growth @ 30)
T5: 11 49 Continuum Size6: Work the spices
T6: 17 59
T7: 23 69
T8: 29 79 (16 in granary, growth @ 32)
T9: 19 89 Continuum Size7: Work the Southern Cottage
T10: 25 +9 surplus with 2 more turns of unhappiness

At which point we will probably want to go back to settlers / workers.

The Pros:
Granary + Library in 10T with no net effect on pop and a manageable :unhappy: That's effectively 1T to build a granary vs building the Library first.
net effect of +21 food, 17 of which are stored in the granary for the next pop growth

The Cons:
We delay the next city (Cosmos) by at least 10 Turns. Considering we have added 3 cities and the associated maintenance in the last ~15T then we may need to slow things down to let the economy catch up again

We should think about a library before the granary in Continuum, we'd get 10.5 beakers out of it.

Assuming the above math is solid we only delay the Library by 1T to get the granary as well.

Granaries are more useful when you build them first thing. The thing is, it is never the first thing you build in your capital, in fact you don't end up considering to build one in your capital until quite a while into the game, as is the case here. Continuum has already grown to size 7 without it and will grow to size 8, and then some, before its finished. If our cap right now is pop 9, then we are not actually getting much of a benefit from it, except for the health bonus, which won't be needed until we hit size 9.

I'm not sure about a library. On one hand, we'll get to optics faster, we'll get more beakers, and a scientist if we want, but on the other hand, we'll be lowering the slider and therefore getting less beakers. We might not even WANT optics faster, we need to build those triremes and position them, and bank some gold. So, I suggest either a trireme or library next.

We will have our first Trireme next turn and the second before we finish optics. It will take ~7T for it to be in position @ Asymptote.

You can still build triremes after optics.
I think we should get a library, and then build a caravel ASAP in Continuum.
The reason for that being circumnavigation. The +1 move well be excellent, and we especially also need to keep it out of the hands of CDZ.

We are going to upgrade both Triremes to Caravels the turn that we gain Optics. If we time it right we can also play it late the turn (ideally last) we gain optics, end turn and send them on their merry way. The longer we can delay giving up Optics the better the chance we have of +1 nav bonus. We need a 4T head start on CDZ assuming they are going to go for it with 2 caravels.


Your thoughts and comments fellow Q?

 

[TyBoy]

If we're going to whip I think that makes a granary a no brainer, and that may easily be the best move. When you say it delays cosmos you mean vs. building a granary straight then building a settler?

Anyway, there are many good courses to take and I'm not 100% in tune with what we're doing these days. I don't think it would be a strong use of hammers to build a granary in a city that we don't expect to be growing much afterwards.

Would it be useful to go trireme -> worker/settler in continuum and build a building or settler/worker in quatron?

 

[cav scout]

I like Galdarian's plan for Continuum. After we finish the library we can keep growing the city up to the happy cap and get more cottages going. Quatron will be well suited to take over the worker/settler role during this growth period for Continuum.

Yes this does slow down the inital 8 city REX (especially if we had both Continuum and Quatron churning out workers/settlers). But the allure of a few multiplier buildings and more cottages for our capital (where we will be running bureau shortly) is too tempting for me.

EDIT: what if we go granary-> forge-> library? Might as well get the hammer multiplying building early to speed up everything afterwards.

 

[galdarian]

The only reason I would be against the forge in the middle is the extra 1 that it provides. Having said that I'm always on board with the best idea

I've just checked the current status of Continuum again to count up the surplus food & hammers. The settler is @ 44 /100 adding 13 per turn so thats 57,70,83,96 and needs 4 on the last turn which leaves 4 and 5

I'm not sure if the food will go towards a pop growth because of the timing however even if it doesn't it should be a 4T worker as the Bananas will be hooked in by then giving us (4x14)=56 + 4 surplus. Nice!

The draw back of course is that it will change the figures in my calculation slightly.