Turn Discussion

[MrBanana]

I think we should grab the forge, then the granary and library. I doesn't see the rush if the library won't speed up our key tech and won't be as strong one are slider has to go down because of expansion. The one unhappiness can be dealt with, whave potential for 9 health with the granary, so sickness won't be an issue until Continuum maxes it's happiness out.

BTW, are we gonna get those hills in continuum mined soon?

 

[CharlemagneXLII]

That's a good plan, Galdarian. I didn't think we'd be whipping Continuum, so therefore a granary isn't all that necessary, but whipping a granary is a good idea. I think we should replace the library with a forge in your plan-we'll have enough health from the granary. That will put our health cap at a population of 8 for Continuum, and will add an extra happiness for what its worth. So, here is my suggested revision:

Turn 1 after worker: 10/34 4 surplus (Granary)
T2: 16 14 (Whip 2 pop = 2x30 + 25% = 75 hammers) Continuum Size5: -2 tiles = Southern Cottage & Spices
T3: 21 29 (Forge)
T4: 26 39 (10 in granary, growth @ 30)
T5: 11 49 Continuum Size6: Work the spices
T6: 17 59
T7: 23 69
T8: 29 79 (16 in granary, growth @ 32)
T9: 19 89 Continuum Size7: Work the Southern Cottage
T10: 25 99
T11: 31 109 Switch cottage to western forest (the other one works too), giving 12 and 5 . (17 in granary, growth @ 34)
T12: 19 1 Forge complete, start on settler, +1, +1 in Continuum, leaving Continuum with 9 and 9, with the whipping penalty gone. Work the cottage again.

The extra three turns in building the forge should be made up for with the +25% production, that evens out after 8 turns (we get +2 hammers from the forge, and we lose 2 turns of production on the settler. 2*8=16, 24/2=12 turns), less if we continue to work a more productive tile after growing to size 8.

The library I think we'll only need once the ETTT starts to break up, and we'll be doing most of our own research. We're advanced enough as it is, and we can rely on our partners.

Are we able to trade resources yet? We have trade routes, so I'd think that should be possible. If we're going to want to move last with our caravel plan, than peace with Merlot is necessary.

 

[Earthling]

I agree with Galdarian's plan, it really makes sense. It's something that I guess strikes many of us as odd because we are losing a lot of commerce. However, in the position we are in the game, I really do have to agree that commerce specifically does not matter very much. A lot of our allies seem to be really heavily whipping/focusing on production rather than research, and thus we aren't really gaining anything by too much commerce (when we could get more production/food/raw infrastructure ourselves).

For that matter I could go with Charlemagne's revision on the forge, for the same reasons - yes, we are slowing down tech, but there is no particular hurry to go anywhere with tech, and our allies are doing the same. At the least, whipping for the granary clearly works out pretty well so I am fine with starting with that after the settler- and we'll still catch up on settlers and workers eventually.

Cosmos at least is not threatened by being settled by another civilization. If we were changing up REX plans it would probably even be ok to get the fourth city on our home island (by the great Quatronian Reef) and settle overseas (Cosmos, Axiom and more) in another bout a little later.

Edit: About Quatron - I definitely think Quatron could help fill in settler/worker gaps that we are having right now. For one, we don't particularly need to finish building the trireme right away. We actually save on unit maintenance if we leave the trireme partly built for a while. (instead of 1gpt for a few turns, just a little thing) And we won't lose any hammers for 10 turns if we stop building it. So since we're about to hit size 6, I'd propose:

In Quatron:
-Keep building trireme till size 6.
-Switch to worker (not finishing the trireme yet, we don't lose anything from not finishing it yet)
-Worker can mine+chop more tiles for Quatron right there, then a settler right after finishing the trireme is a good idea.
-I would have this settler simply be our fourth city on the Q's home island, Singularity should also be up and running (our current worker should be off to farm+mine iron for Singularity, I'd imagine)
-Then down the line we could get a lighthouse, work on Maoi or something in Quatron. If the capital gets a library, it could probably run scientists for a great scientist - if we want another city to run specialists Quatron is a consideration though.

 

[cav scout]

Now is the time to whip the Trireme in Quatron.

*We aren't incurring any unit maintenance right now and we just founded Asymptote so we have free support for 3 more units.

*If CDZ finishes Machinery in the next 3 turns we will have Optics in 15 turns (3 turns to build up gold for upgrades and tech run, 12 turns for the 100% tech run). This doesn't leave us any time to pause production at pop 6 to build a worker (it will take 8 turns to sail to Asymptote, plus we still have to build the 2nd trireme).

*Lastly, the benefits of whipping are too great to continue passing up on. We are currently working an unimproved tile right now. The sooner we get a whip in the sooner the 10 turns of unhappiness will wear off and we can whip again. Quatron is in the whipping sweet spot right now so lets do it.

I have done everything for our turn except whip Quatron. I will wait another 8 hours for people to comment.

EDIT: To answer an earlier question- Although we do have foreign trade routes in our cities we will still can't trade resources yet... guess we will have to wait for Astro.

 

[CharlemagneXLII]

Whip it, but don't set sail right away, we don't want it sitting in asymptote telling the world our plan. If we're only building the triremes in Quatron, we'd have to whip one eventually, might as well be now.

I had an idea- it might help for organization if we had a stickied thread where the OP could list current build queues for cities and where we can specifically discuss what to build in cities there.

 

[Earthling]

I guess I didn't remember why the Quatron trireme is going towards Asymptote? Or are we building two triremes just in Quatron? (that actually might work better, if we whip this one and build the second one while we regrow a little. I know the plan is to have one trireme at either end of the empire, just thought this one was hanging around here.)

So yeah that also does work, if we don't have another trireme building elsewhere (?) We might as well build a second trireme though as we grow back in Quatron, unless there is something better to build while we grow (lighthouse is feasible too if we want it). But the capital seems on a tighter schedule now - I like it, but getting the second trireme just right here could do well too.

I think I'm onboard though - and two triremes in Quatron makes enough sense, they should at least have plenty of time to get where they need to be eventually. I actually don't think we even need to worry about other teams speculating over things - it's probably enough of a good idea just to have a trireme to deter enemy ships anyway.

 

[galdarian]

I think this says it best!

Considering that we're "at war" I don't think that it's hard to justify having a Trireme at Asymptote. If we wanted to hide it in Asymptote until a turn (or 2) prior to setting sail then that is no issue either. If CDZ's city doesn't pop a border in the next few turns though I doubt that they will even see that it's sitting there as they shouldn't be able to see over our BFC.

2 Trireme's in Quatron is the current plan. We should be @ 15 so 2 pop whip leaving 25 surplus gives us the next Trireme in 6T. That assumes we work the 2x Wheats and the Spice getting pop 4 in 2T and using that pop on the Silver. 2x Triremes in 8 turns, the first one won't even be in position by the time we have the second. At that point I'd happily support a worker in Quatron and we can get on with the Granary whip in Continuum. Let's keep in mind that @ Size 5 Quatron roughly as productive as Continuum, +4 8, at Size 6 becomes +3 +10.

We can also consider a forge whip in Quatron after Continuum has finished.

 

[cav scout]

For next turn I'm planning on:

1. Healing the exploring warrior in the jungle. I think we should promote him to wood I and eventually wood II from barb xp. He can roam around the jungles and forests scouting for us and controlling the ivory (we just found some). We can upgrade him to an axe at some point to keep him relevant.

2. Starting another trireme in Quatron.

3. Finishing Compass, selecting HBR as a place holder and dropping down to 0%.

4. Moving our new trireme (name?) towards Asymptote.

Build Queues:

Continuum: settler->worker->granary->forge->library
Quatron: trireme->forge
Resonance: granary
Asymptote: granary

 

[Bowsling]

Excellent.
I think the Continuum settler should go up to the "nucleus" of the continent, and claim the ivory up there.
As for the name of the trireme, we should have the Rhine or Danube.

 

[CharlemagneXLII]

While controlling at least part of the middle of the continent would be very useful, we can't waste a settler there. Hopefully we can get a fort up there eventually (we'd need units to garrison it too). I do agree that ivory should become a priority, once we have more workers- it will make conquering the Mavs easier.

Continuum: settler->worker->granary->forge->library

I really think we have to decide between a forge and a library here, both will slow down our expansion too much. Maybe build that worker in Quatron when it gets to size 5 again.

Also, don't forget our cothon, which should be the building we build when we want to grow to size 9 (+1 health).

I think this says it best!

Apparently that's blocked in Canada. Can you give me a quick rundown?

 

[MrBanana]

If were not whipping any population, a granary in COntinuum isn't very useful now. A forge would not only speed up buildings, but also workers and settlers if we mine those hills.

 

[cav scout]

For next turn I'm plan to:

1. Switch production in Quatron to our 2nd trireme. I put our trireme whip overflow into a forge for the organized religion bonus this turn. 2nd Trireme will still be completed in plenty of time for circumnavigation.

2. Move a warrior over to Resonance.

3. Continue to heal our exploring warrior. Waiting on input for the promo (I like wood I).

4. Move the island worker towards the eastern wheat.

Build Queues:

Continuum: settler->worker->granary->forge->library
Quatron: trireme->forge
Resonance: granary
Asymptote: granary

 

[CharlemagneXLII]

I like wood I, wood II is useful for exploring, and there are plenty of barbs around for the XP it seems. I suggested combat I for the first promotion because the warrior needed to heal and was facing a second barb attack.

Which way is that Maverick WB heading? Has it been turned back already? They'll probably say something about that to us, so we can tell them that we're stationing a trireme in Asyptote because we are concerned about CDZ or something like that.

 

[cav scout]

The Mav boat has been turned back by CDZ.

 

[cav scout]

For next turn I plan to:

1. Drop off a warrior near the copper and another at Resonance.

2. Continue to heal our exploring warrior. Waiting on input for the promo (I like wood I).

3. Start farming the eastern wheat.

4. Continue moving our trireme to Asymptote but make sure the Mav and Sirius workboats don't see it.

Build Queues:

Continuum: settler->worker->granary->forge->library
Quatron: trireme->forge
Resonance: granary
Asymptote: granary

 

[galdarian]

I think that we should consider teching HBR properly next turn @ 80-90%. We should have enough gold to cover the upgrade (50 per trireme) and tech cost. I base this on the fact that in the demographics we are the 2nd ranked nation in terms of GDP and it would take us 16T to tech Machinery.

So even if CDZ are on par with us we're talking about another 4-6T till we will get Machinery off them.

PS> Don't forget to gift the tech next turn.

 

[Earthling]

I'm happy with teching something for real too, not at a rate where we lost gold but just so it goes along.

Remember GDP includes culture though guys. So the top nation, we think it's Sirius, is really trucking along as they have less religion/wonder culture, others including us have a fair amount of inflation regarding gold. But I think it's still right that CDZ won't have Machinery quite yet, we'll be waiting a little bit.

For build orders, I'm not sure forge => granary => library is entirely necessary in Continuum either. The forge and granary are good, still agree with that from before, but I'm willing to reanalyze the situation and gear more towards expansion after that though. Quatron is probably good, it's going to want to regrow and the trireme/forge work pretty well. We maybe could do the forge first before the trireme though? Optics is a while out, if we are done with forge in less than 15 turns it probably works that way.

We should also probably check/update our foreign intel thread, at least check how many cities everyone has, what F8 and the top cities screen say, and so on. Demographics are looking all right though, everyone close enough in food/production is at least ok.

 

[Earthling]

With the news from CDZ, invite everyone to see the thread of course, I think some changeup in our plans may be warranted. I haven't changed any builds I believe, just took screenshots and mapped stuff, but there could be a few useful changes.

Quatron: edited a bit: I really think we might as well switch to the forge right away. We're not going to have optics before the trireme finishes and don't particularly need the second trireme right now, might as well get something more useful built earlier. More specifically - with OR bonuses and at pop 5 coming up we should finish the forge in 10 turns or less. There's no way we have Optics in 10 turns, that would be 100% research and we don't even have Machinery yet. Optics is quite possibly about 15 turns out, and then after the forge and at higher pop/production we finish the trieme very easily in just 4 or so turns. I wouldn't be opposed if we even wanted to change course for a worker at size 6 or something but that would put us on a tighter schedule for the caravel. If we're not looking like we get Machinery for quite a while maybe we consider one more thing to build while we wait, but forge => trireme should certainly work.

Continuum: Depending on how we adjust our settler plans (see below) I think it's worth considering a second settler in a row aided by a chop. The worker would chop the plains hill to the SouthEast; the hookup of banana means no health problems for now anyway. Continuum could build another settler in just four (4) turns after the current one, so if we decide to send the current one overseas or something then we could still get Singularity settled pretty soon.

Here's a screenshot of the capital. Overflow +1chop if we choose means just 4 more turns of producing the next settler. We could do the granary => forge right after that just as feasibly still, it would just be a straight delay of that build for another settler.

Spoiler :

Now on to the pressing matter - what to do about our land race with CDZ. If you didn't know, as we just saw in another thread, they have founded a city where we might have founded Cosmos. There are various options out there to discuss, can't pretend to know them all, but certainly we could attempt to trade them something for it back, settle another city of our aggressively to keep our land claims/integrity up, or really just ignore it and move on elsewhere.

Anyway, assuming we are not going to war and do not get the city traded, I think we have some new options/dotmaps for any more potential cities we would found. A "new cosmos" up further in the jungle still gets clams/grassland eventually. Then, if CDZ doesn't beat us to more spots, we have a couple of intermediate city possibilities to still snag useful resources.

By Spamville - I like this city if we want to found it next, as far as actual mechanics/economy goes. Working out the diplomacy with CDZ may be harder. But this city by all rights is a solid city, it will out-culture for the clams, can share Banana with Resonance for optimal whipping, and solid grass/grass hills to boot. The most cutting edge outcome of this decision is if CDZ is using their workboat (see the screenshot) to work the clams. If we can just settle the city we take the clams back 10-11 turns when our culture expands, we get a free workboat and Spamville is turned into a pretty worthless city that will be stuck at size 3-4 for a long time. And the worker right there already can build an easy road to and from Resonance and work on mutual improvements for both cities.

Spoiler :

Later on - Banana city in between what are now two CDZ cities. We should hopefully still have a cultural edge, this city would wind up pure production for the most part but it should grow quickly, and if we could steal copper eventually would be pretty awesome.

Spoiler :

So again, I personally want to do something about keeping up with CDZ. So that probably means the current settler built in Continuum needs to go over on the galley (so don't fill the galley with an extra warrior). Whether we arrange a trade of cities/settler in return for Cosmos, or just settle another one of our own to claim land, I'm more comfortable doing something about it at the least.

I do believe that whatever route we take we can certainly be militarily and culturally secure in the short term. What we might need to do is build a couple of warriors, when we hook up iron at home upgrade to axes (50 or 60 gold each, somewhere around there iirc). But that should be more than enough to deter CDZ from any foolish raid ideas. 50 turns down the line who knows, but then again we already know we are neighbors with them and they have a militaristic bent anyway. I'm not denying though the path we're on, both us and CDZ, could lead to some conflict, so we have to make the call on what is worth it - there's always gains to be made settling up the Indian side or something elsewhere.

But this could definitely use everyone's input and there are lots of considerations out there - so please comment and let's come up with the best decision for the Q!

 

[galdarian]

Spamville we will eventually squeeze out anyway so I would personally go with the piggy in the middle city now.

I would however move it 1N to be 2N of the Bananas. The cultural pressure, if we can apply enough of it, would deny CDZ BOTH of the copper resources. We may have to worry about a culture bomb though. I suggest our next tech beeline should be to do the cultural fringe (Aesthtics -> Literature -> Drama) to ensure we get the early GA and bomb the middle city.

It's aggressive but most importantly it doesn't incite a military campaign with our current ETTT partner.

 

[Earthling]

That's a reasonable conclusion too - and adjusting that middle city is also fine, so long as it gets both bananas it should be good.

The thing I most liked about squeezing Spamville is that they may actually build that workboat for us (free to us, we should steal the square by culture, being in our first ring and their second ring). We could watch for this and if they don't do that (use their workboat) then maybe the gain isn't quite so great. The middle city and the Spamville city could both share some tiles with Resonance though, which is most ideal for whipping/production, though we'd maybe have to think out build orders a bit to see.

I'm almost leaning towards not offering them any deals/saying anything yet, just settle a city of our own and go from there. I am fine with either city though, and what we might change in the capital or elsewhere to compensate. Mostly because I just don't think they would be willing to liberate Cosmos even if we gifted them a settler or something, so it'll just be diplomatic humdrum. However I could certainly see many people may feel otherwise and giving fair discussion/diplomacy to this is possible, I wouldn't want to discourage that if it's what we want.

The Great Artist from Music could be a concern here but I'd probably prefer that Sirius/AMAZONs just deal with that. I think that's going just a bit far to make either us or CDZ very angry if a culture bomb occurs, so I would sign on to letting another ally just research that if it's easier. We don't want CDZ to get it though, that much is clear.