Turn Discussion

Okay, and yeah any moves can always be changed back until the timer rolls if needed, I intended to check back anyway, but I know what you are saying. (oh, and also, regardless of what we build while growing, warriors or something else, I don't think anything changes on the settler. But if we're not waiting for a granary or a galley or something might as well put the production into warriors now. I think it's 5 or 6 turns till we have a cottage up, that's when we want to be at size 6. We'll get there right away- 3 turns now though and then cut growth for the settler. When we're at size 6 though we also have to put a couple turns onto a forest tile instead of the cottage to get to 100 :hammers: on the settler and 7 turns instead of 8. A second cottage will be up right around the time we finish the settler with the current plan) Since it seems that was the default and there aren't enough supporting other options we'll go back. Also, people who were recommending other stuff, like farming intstead of cottaging- currently we're still planning to cottage as a default though, so speak up if a bunch of you have different ideas.

As for other things, I personally oppose going slavery and getting galley that soon at this point though, but that's a bit of a ways out, we still have the settler for the next 10 turns anyway. The reason is it's not playing to our strengths at this point, and trying to overcompensate against a choice we already made. We've got a lot of things reasonably mapped out and the galley is an awful lot of production against economic growth. We got Stonehenge so we can grow bigger cities and have culture pops, and we're already setting ourselves up for faster research and commerce; we decided against certain parts of REXing. So I'd say getting a third city and infrastructure serves us better than trying to go back to slaving settlers/units as fast as possible, since we want the third city on the home island still imo. I really think holding off on slavery till we get Organized Religion or another civic is fine, it won't be more than 30 turns most likely, and we really don't have anything to slave if we've decided not to take hits and slave like a library at the capital.

I'm unsure if we want to go back to tech Animal Husbandry and Iron Working though, I know this all needs discussion. Having Math and doing a lot of chopping gives us more leeway on everything, and I still would prefer that path, but not an official vote yet I guess.

By the way - this should also go in the intelligence thread, but India has two cities. They founded a city/their score went up in the middle of a turn a couple turns back, I just noticed that on civstats.
 
Two things I noticed:

First we probably about to meet India, as it is more their pink too my eyes (I have glasses, so meh), and they have better culture because of reiligion.

Also, it looks as if the line going down the mainland through the plains are mountains. They had grey border, and it makes sense: land travel will have choke points, like at the bottom of the mainland.
 
We need one farmed grassland near the capital, or the population growth will be too slow towards our cap. Other than that, I say we cottage the rest.

Regarding research, I think we could handle a sort of compromise between the Math-Calendar crowd and the Hunting/AH and Iron working crowd, as we saw with the StoneHenge/Big City crowd vs. the REXing/Slavery crowd.

I think we should go for Writing, then Mathematics and then Hunting and Animal Husbandry.
This will allow us to chop quite soon. As it will be a rush for positions on the mainland, we will not be capable to build Calendar plantations for quite some time, and we need to find horse and Iron sooner than later.

That said, I am also vehemently against slavery for this particular game, that would be to toss out the advantages painfully staked by Stonehenge and Charismatic trait, and should be generally ignored as an option. We took that choice when Stonehenge was built, and the same people that opposed Stonehenge also represented slavery and REXing, I think thats settled now.

Added food is needed to boost our way to the new happiness cap, or it will go too slow.

So the new tech-strategy, as we revise it with early good forest chops is the following:

Pottery, Sailing, Writing, Math, Hunting and Animal Husbandry

This allows us to produce the following: Warrior-50 % warrior-Settler-100 % warrior- lighthouse - Settler-galley-warrior-settler

We still need to identify if we are to do Currency after AH, as there is added gold, leveraged with our financial trait, as well as added happiness from Silver. We got a few silver on our island.
 
*Well i'm pro-stonehenge and pro-slavery. I don't follow your logic about why slavery is bad Provo. Cities with 2 food sources are perfect for whipping. At 30:hammers: per pop the whip is just too good to pass up on.

*I support a grassland farm for Continuum a long ways down the road, not for one more :food: but to spread irrigation.

*A lighthouse? Why on earth would we want one of those in continuum?
 
In my opinion the map centering thing is fairly useless whether it comes from stonehenge or calendar, it didn't weight into my support of either. North-South position can be gauged fairly accurately from the striation of the terrain types and East-West doesn't matter on a round map.

I think that build plan is too light on the workers. With 2 wheat both of those next two cities will grow faster than one worker can improve the terrain. Working unimproved tiles is generally not very effective.

I still feel we should write off our UU. In the best of circumstances it is an average unit and the tech path is out of the way and expensive. Most of the time we're better off without it.
 
The logic is that we got a few silver mines with low food production we need to work, and there is marginal food surplus when these are covered. The cottages barely break even foodwise, and we may need another mine or so. We want hammers, not necessarily slaving. We need to max out the use of the happy cap we worked hard to achieve.
 
I agree that we probably want to grow to happy cap in Continuum to work cottages instead of whipping there. But for our other cities the whip is a no brainer. You seem to completely miss my rationale for wanting to switch sooner rather than later

If Continuum works the two silver mines and the two wheats that gives us a very respectable 5:food: surplus (hardly marginal). All other pops can work cottages or the forest spice up to grow to the happy cap. At that point more mines can come into play. A farm would be waste of time right now.
 
I don't follow your logic about why slavery is bad Provo.

Well, considering I'm kinda against quicker Slavery right now - while not in agreement with Provo on everything, I can explain what I am thinking:

-We just don't have the urgent need to slave things, and it goes against synergy on our land and city development. Generally, it's less efficient to slave if you've already got valuable resources to work - might as well have that population working the silver mine or iron mine or wheat or etc... but we all know this. If we look at each of our new cities, we're going to have multiple resources right away. And then we even get free monuments, a real strong benefit of Stonehenge. I'm not at all opposing a reasonable expansion strategy now, but the fact is we have not spammed units or cities yet, not even a barb threat that we'd have slavery for "just in case."

-There ARE reasons for slavery, but none have been particular plans proposed. Namely, I haven't heard really any of us advocating for a lot of military buildup, or slaving/chopping specific World Wonders. If we're building settlers, workers, and usual infrastruce like libraries/lighthouses we can manage without the slaving, and keep in mind we have forests as well. Again, if somebody does have clear plans for wonders, that merits a look at getting more infrastructure with slavery (and then saving the forests for wonders, or forests for quick military, both kinda the same).

-Plus, it's just a turn of anarchy, and I should mention we can always revert to slavery just a bit later. I honestly don't think it's more than 30 turns before we'd convert to some religious civic or even bureaucracy in just a bit or something. The question is do we need slavery right NOW - and if we're not slaving the capital city, and we wouldn't be slaving new cities till pop 4 or 5 or more due to resources, we don't need it yet.

Again, if we were in a slightly different spot - and we did have some test runs/games a while back, I'm sure many of us recall, then slavery works better. Settle a city with two wheats as city #2 and if we hadn't gone SH etc, we could have had galleys/military/whatever out and overseas too for that matter much quicker, but we chose a different (though I really think still good) path. We really are playing to our strengths since we have a free building for border pops now, have a religion and high happy cap, to grow large cities and maximize the commerce. We've decided on settling that silver city which really has no benefit from slaving until at least size 4 - wheat, silver, then wheat with border pop. Yes, slaving in the short term is hammers, but what for - boats or military, or some world wonders we haven't been discussing? I'd rather just work the resources and then cottages where we want, and let the forest chops eventually get something we may need. Slavery at turn 70 with Organized Religion or something - that's fine, but now it just seems a waste of anarchy.

I know this is a long post but some other thoughts, all related anyway

I could certainly agree to put off Calendar in favor of techs like Hunting/Animal Husbandry/Iron Working. In the very best situation we get Math and then some other team gets Alphabet and we trade - but I agree Calendar is expensive and resources could be important. I'm happy to get Math, for everything Math does and then backfill if that becomes necessary.

I don't think we need a grass farm yet either - I think I said that before. We have +5:food: in Continuum, even with another grass mine it's still +4. Now if we want one farm to spread irrigation south that's doable but we can get it later.

Workers/general building units. Well, I don't want to go out of line and we have a current set plan for now, but I agree that I personally would take a slightly different path after this settler. Really, I'd get a second worker out, and maybe the third settler before the galley at this point. But given that we want a galley and warriors which seems to be the team consensus, I'd still get the workers, and still let the capital grow. I entirely agree the worker turns will pay off - for instance, looking at our third southeast city, we can farm the wheat and mine that plains hill with potential iron before the city is even founded. So in other words, a few turns later on a galley or warriors would have been fine by me, and a compromise is still fine. So maybe

1+1/2 warrior => settler => worker => finish warrior => galley

is possible, but at the very least I'd really prefer a build like this as a compromise

1+1/2 warrior => settler => finish warrior => galley=>worker (size 7?)
 
I don't see any problem in advancing the workboats. That purple team can already see the Rio Grande. Our first note can be short and sweet, just a pm saying hi and asking for their team email. Let's just make sure its the Mavericks for sure before sending anything off!
 
It's been a while since I've played on this difficulty, but 30 turns seems awful generous to be at another civic technology. I think we're 30 turns out from mathematics, much less civil service or even monotheism.

I'd like to go pottery > sailing > writing > math then see where we are.
 
I don't see any problem in advancing the workboats. That purple team can already see the Rio Grande.
Are you sure? The pictures still show a "?" next to all teams. Looking at past Continuum screenies, we can only see one tile past our borders and the Rio Grande is two tiles away from theirs.
 
It's not really the difficulty or game speed, and normally I would agree. However, every team appears to have at least 3x gold/gems/silver. And as soon as people agree to tech trade, that alliance researches 2-3 times as fast. We're certainly not 30 turns from Math - Math is maybe 20 turns. Now Civil Service I agree is further out, I was thinking around turn 100 is problem when Philosophy/CS might hit with a lot of tech trading. But somebody might hit CoL for Caste System, or Monotheism, or Hereditary Rule not too far off - obviously Caste can't be adopted with Slavery but the others can. In other words, if we get some agreement where team A researches Alphabet, team B researches Monarchy, we research Math + whatever - and then we all trade, tech goes extremely fast. (Very much like what happened last demogame too. This is also why I kinda wanted tech trading off at the start and setup of the game, but we have to live with it.)

But anyway, I'm quite happy with pottery => sailing => writing => math too, and if we want to revise at that point that is fine.

As far as contact - I am very positive that the purple team (most likely India, right) CANNOT see our workboat. We don't have contact and cultural borders don't usually give you two vision at sea either. Now there is the chance their borders are about to expand at 100 culture though, this turn or next, and will see us anyway then if we don't find them this turn.
 
Unless there is other news, let's still not play this turn yet and give it another 12 hours to get diplomatic messages and moves thought out. Otherwise we just move the workboats, the worker is finishing a road, and end turn iirc.

I'm thinking if we make official contact what we do is PM their current turnplayer (probably DMOC if it indeed India) to ask for a team-email account, and that's it initially. We'll give them our team email and work on an official message - or well we can get started now too. Should be interesting times ahead, especially if we make more contacts with other nations in just a while.
 
Ah you guys are right, they can't see us because of the ocean tiles. :crazyeye:

Well I still say we advance. The sooner we get the initial dialouge out of the way the sooner we can start putting together substantive stuff.
 
Well as far as I know we don't have a real/substantial initial message written, and I know my run as turnplayer here is about up so some time on the transition there is fine too. Plus it appears lately various other teams are running the turn timer to the last tick every turn anyway - only 2/6 played so far.

That all given, if anyone is ready to move and maybe just send an initial private message - a full email to come later, that's ok by me. Still think we could use a couple more team member inputs but if four or more are all ready then whomever wants to log-in can get it. Bowsling perhaps, back by tomorrow I'd hope, and if wants to be the diplomat more than happy to have him take this move, or if he needs me to just log-in to the actual turn I'll do that but we'll turn over email/official contact shortly to come.

And really we'll possibly have this same procedure in just a few turns with the next civ though so I see benefit in being organized. Tentatively, do we have an idea of who wanted to be a diplomat to what teams?

Maverick-Bowsling
AMAZON-Provolution? or cavscout, I think there was a team you mentioned too?
Merlot - ?
CDZ - ?
Sirius - ?

I'd be willing to work with any of those teams too but I have no special preferences and want everyone on the team to get theirs if they have neat ideas. Of course probably a while before we meet the last couple teams in-game, whomever happens to be furthest away.
 
Less than 5% I'm pretty sure, we're on Monarch. Though iirc it's mapsize as much as difficulty that ramps up tech costs, and we're also on a standard map though. We can get in-game beaker counts, I think the starting techs like Agriculture were 89 :science: so however that stacks up to your normal game.

And last bump on our turn here - still half a day and 2 other teams who haven't taken their turns, but if we're about ready to move the workboats and close up this turn I think that's fine, I'll check in later if I can, if not someone else getting to it is fine too.
 
I would like to mine that hill SE after the cottaging we do right now, any objections to this? We may need the added production in order to get a stronger hold on our expansion.
 
Keep cottaging for now, we don't have time for a mine detour with our worker as he will be going with our settler. The next worker will be well positioned (in Continuum) to go build that mine.

Also, that really sucks we didn't make contact with that team. :( We need to get the diplo going as soon as possible so we don't end up as the team left out of alliances! Was there a way to maneuver the workboat to get within range? Your screens don't really provide enough info- could you do a zoom in and add grids and tile yields (to see the ocean spaces clearly)? A zoom in of our island would be appreciated as well, so we can visualize the worker.
 
Ok, here's a thought - maybe that team really is the Vikings, team CDZ after all.

If it was India, I was really very sure their culture would have expanded further. They have Hinduism as their religion adding +5:culture: and I assume they did settle on the coast (everyone seemed to have settled in 4000 BC.) So if it's India I really don't see how their culture didn't get far enough for us to see it. They should have over 100:culture: = 3 rings. If somehow we couldn't make out the colors though and this is the Vikings, that could explain it, and we'll probably make contact around the back side of the island. I'd say sail the workboat onward cause we'd still have contact in a handful of turns and the workboat needs to go on towards the next civ - and if it is Vikings or something, their culture won't expand for a bit yet, no point waiting around for that.

I'm in favor of cottaging the capital, because we discussed this extensively, and don't have time for the mine now. If we were going to chop + mine it would have been before this road plan and we decided to save the forests for a little later and cottage anyway. So far we have all improved tiles anyway, or we will shortly - 2x wheat, 2x silver, 1 or 2 cottages (work spices if we still want, that's quite a fair tile. But a second cottage will be up if we want to work it) And it'll be a while before we hit size seven and really need anything more.

For that matter, we still don't seem decided on what's after the settler. A galley first, or a worker, would probably be best - at this point a granary or something would be slow and a detour imo. I would go with the worker and a few more turns of improvement, then the galley as we grow to seven, and then another settler. Galley earlier gets more warriors overseas though and we could try to grow to seven straight through with that. Anyway iirc there were some different thoughts here, but for now I think we have to go with the current plan until city #2 is founded.

By the way - we're really not "behind" in production. Or rather, it's not because anyone else has an uber-capital doing better than us. Other civs have founded their second cities which have 2 or 3 hammers adding to their production, or at least the civs at the top. We knew we'd have later 2nd and 3rd cities but when we get ours founded we catch right up too.
 
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