RegentMan
Deity
The question is can we reasonable support four cities this early? I don't want to be at 40% science attempting to research alphabet.
Turn Discussion
- Thread starter cav scout
- Start date
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
I think we can support 5-6 at this map level, which is why we need to get on the mainland in order to project influence and let culture grow from an earlier stage.
If anything I would say that lessens the importance of getting to the mainland quickly. If we're actually going to have to slow growth after only 5-6 cities that means only 2-3 overseas cities, and we certainly aren't going to be in any danger of getting beat to the best few spots. If economics are limiting our expansion then using the strongest, closest city spots is more important than rapidly fanning out to grab land.
The third overseas city will be especially expensive because it will trigger colonial expenses for all of them. If we were going to hold back for a moment to solidify our situation, after the second overseas city would be a good time to do it.
We've got really good city spots though. As long as we keep a healthy number of workers available to cottage new cities they can start paying for themselves remarkably quickly and I think we should be able to develop as quickly as possible with the construction speed of the settlers, workers and military, as well as basic improvements like libraries in our central cities being the main limiting factor.
The third overseas city will be especially expensive because it will trigger colonial expenses for all of them. If we were going to hold back for a moment to solidify our situation, after the second overseas city would be a good time to do it.
We've got really good city spots though. As long as we keep a healthy number of workers available to cottage new cities they can start paying for themselves remarkably quickly and I think we should be able to develop as quickly as possible with the construction speed of the settlers, workers and military, as well as basic improvements like libraries in our central cities being the main limiting factor.
Sorry I've missed something. What did we miss Cav?
@ The turnplayer: Keep in mind we need to move the warrior to fog bust Quatron's city site in the next few turns.
cav scout
The Continuum
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2008
- Messages
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CDZ has their culture projecting out onto an ocean tile that serves as a "bridge" for pre-astro naval units and trade routes. If we had maneuvered our workboat a bit differently we could have linked in with this CDZ culture bridge and made contact a few turns before we met their workboat. The question now is: will we be able to get a trade route with them when we get open borders? Or do we need to go back and unfog the bridge tile to trade with them.
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About the warrior- he is fine where he is at really. The only possible tile a barb could spawn on right now is the location for our next city. And once our settler gets over there the barb threat will be completely gone. As our settler makes his final approach he will have the chance to retreat back if a barb appears (unlikely). If we move our warrior from the ideal spawnbust location we could have barbs spawning in other spots, causing us worse headaches.
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About the warrior- he is fine where he is at really. The only possible tile a barb could spawn on right now is the location for our next city. And once our settler gets over there the barb threat will be completely gone. As our settler makes his final approach he will have the chance to retreat back if a barb appears (unlikely). If we move our warrior from the ideal spawnbust location we could have barbs spawning in other spots, causing us worse headaches.
I still favor getting 3 cities on our home continent, then the fourth on the "mainland." I just don't see it worth taking more hits to growth/economy another way. I doubt the Vikings would get around to taking our spots THAT fast- the most they do is settle their city on the other side which is the mirror of Resonance, and we couldn't stop that if we tried. Whether the fourth city is Resonance or Asymptote I guess is up to decision, but I'm strongly for the third on our own island, if it comes to a vote.
I would revert to Buddhism for one turn of anarchy when in motion to city #2, not slavery right now though, as I don't see us slaving anytime particularly soon.
I certainly support a worker right after the settler (well, finish the warrior 80% done first). Always have, just having two workers helps out a lot since the other is committed to Quatron for the forseeable future. The real question is what order of galley/settlers comes next after that. We probably should work out how fast the capital grows to size 7 while building a galley, and even then we could feasibly jump into the third settler, maybe speed up a later one by forest chops, but it could be a call either way.
We could easily support 10+ cities as far as maintenance goes, I don't see why not, even more so when we get currency/harbors going, which could be good goals to tech for. But the major city spots even go before then - at around 8 cities we are sitting pretty good and if there's no rush to expand after that we can slow things down. Maintenance on our home island will be nothing - 4 or 5 gpt for other cities, sure, it's not entirely negligible but a couple clams/sea tiles make that up already at basic low population.
I would revert to Buddhism for one turn of anarchy when in motion to city #2, not slavery right now though, as I don't see us slaving anytime particularly soon.
I certainly support a worker right after the settler (well, finish the warrior 80% done first). Always have, just having two workers helps out a lot since the other is committed to Quatron for the forseeable future. The real question is what order of galley/settlers comes next after that. We probably should work out how fast the capital grows to size 7 while building a galley, and even then we could feasibly jump into the third settler, maybe speed up a later one by forest chops, but it could be a call either way.
We could easily support 10+ cities as far as maintenance goes, I don't see why not, even more so when we get currency/harbors going, which could be good goals to tech for. But the major city spots even go before then - at around 8 cities we are sitting pretty good and if there's no rush to expand after that we can slow things down. Maintenance on our home island will be nothing - 4 or 5 gpt for other cities, sure, it's not entirely negligible but a couple clams/sea tiles make that up already at basic low population.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
I am actually fine with having the first three cities on the mainland if the following issues are addressed:
1.
We dont chop forests until we have a health resource that can compensate for chopping two tiles near a city, or even consider chopping forests reducing health lower than the happiness cap.
We chose Stonehenge and free monuments for the very purpose of getting bigger cities than our rivals, and I see no need to forfeit that with chopping forests giving critical health along with slavery nullifying the gains from our happiness bonuses allowing bigger cities.
2.
We rather mine the tile SE of Continuum in order to get 3 more hammers per turn for increased productivity, and not utilize the spice field. This means we need a worker right after the settler and 50 % warrior. This worker should mine this area before the city pops.and then road the route south to future Singularity.
3.
We build a galley right after the worker under all circumstances, in order to allow the city to grow.
4.
We build 2 settlers in a row in Continuum, then another workboat to settle the clam near Resonance, settling the clam, then we can build a library in Continuum to boost research with the commerce we got there.
5.
Quatron should build a lighthouse, then the Moai Statues, as its the ideal location for hammers on the water as well as building a culture bridge to the desert peninsula., which we may need in some time. By the time Quatron has reached population 5, we would have the clam, and by population 6, we should have gotten access to other food resources.
6.
Singularity has an abundance of food and limited health potential, so I am thinking of it as a future settler and worker factory, near the harbor of Continuum. I think granary would be a good choice for this city, as most settlements would be conducted from the sea. Granary also allows 1 more health due to wheat, so Singularity could reach size 6.
7. Resonance is a good defensive site eastwards, tucked behind the river defense bonus towards the future Viking border. This city should have a barracks, city walls and so on.
8. If we are serious about really trading for backfiller technologies in the foreseeable future, I really really dont understand the ones here arguing for delaying Alphabet, and yet expect new techs to happily jump into our mailbox as fate would have it. I do want to have better units, and as people here refuses Animal Husbandry and Iron Working and Archery, and as we have no copper, we should at the least head straight for Alphabet in order to negotiate these techs, and decide which deals we can strike in the order we want.
1.
We dont chop forests until we have a health resource that can compensate for chopping two tiles near a city, or even consider chopping forests reducing health lower than the happiness cap.
We chose Stonehenge and free monuments for the very purpose of getting bigger cities than our rivals, and I see no need to forfeit that with chopping forests giving critical health along with slavery nullifying the gains from our happiness bonuses allowing bigger cities.
2.
We rather mine the tile SE of Continuum in order to get 3 more hammers per turn for increased productivity, and not utilize the spice field. This means we need a worker right after the settler and 50 % warrior. This worker should mine this area before the city pops.and then road the route south to future Singularity.
3.
We build a galley right after the worker under all circumstances, in order to allow the city to grow.
4.
We build 2 settlers in a row in Continuum, then another workboat to settle the clam near Resonance, settling the clam, then we can build a library in Continuum to boost research with the commerce we got there.
5.
Quatron should build a lighthouse, then the Moai Statues, as its the ideal location for hammers on the water as well as building a culture bridge to the desert peninsula., which we may need in some time. By the time Quatron has reached population 5, we would have the clam, and by population 6, we should have gotten access to other food resources.
6.
Singularity has an abundance of food and limited health potential, so I am thinking of it as a future settler and worker factory, near the harbor of Continuum. I think granary would be a good choice for this city, as most settlements would be conducted from the sea. Granary also allows 1 more health due to wheat, so Singularity could reach size 6.
7. Resonance is a good defensive site eastwards, tucked behind the river defense bonus towards the future Viking border. This city should have a barracks, city walls and so on.
8. If we are serious about really trading for backfiller technologies in the foreseeable future, I really really dont understand the ones here arguing for delaying Alphabet, and yet expect new techs to happily jump into our mailbox as fate would have it. I do want to have better units, and as people here refuses Animal Husbandry and Iron Working and Archery, and as we have no copper, we should at the least head straight for Alphabet in order to negotiate these techs, and decide which deals we can strike in the order we want.
That's a pretty solid plan altogether, but I have some quibbles.
I think Quatron can and should afford a granary first - the granary will pay off quicker than the lighthouse ever would anyway, and we might not want to start on Maoi Statues this early. If Quatron is up and running it could even contribute workers/workboats a bit by size 5 or 6, Maoi is almost certainly going to wait on eventual forest chops a little later anyway.
As for the capital, the build of worker => galley => settlers or roughly that is good. I would say, on the flip side of things though, if we end up choosing to settle Resonance/Asymptote first, we could possibly speed things up by forest chops, so if we chop enough forests maybe we could go overseas faster and then get Singularity a little later.
Lastly, I'd just rather use the worker to build wheat farms for Singularity, and yes, let the capital work the spices tile. The spice tile is fine at pop 7; if we don't chop any more forests there we can sit around at pop 7 and build workers/settlers well enough going through.
So I'd summarize - if we are settling on the home island, I would probably
a) use the worker to farm/road Singularity, that's really the only point of getting Singularity up faster.
b) Still get settlers 4 and 5 quick enough to go overseas, and again we'll choose between Resonance or Asymptote first as needed
If for discussion's sake we settle Resonance first, I'd do something like
a) Worker => Galley and the worker mines/chops (probably western hill) while the galley builds.
b) Continue 1-2 more chops while we build like 3 straight settlers/workboat just to get everything out, and then the worker has time to get farms up elsewhere
I think most of us are close to onboard for Alphabet, in fact I especially don't think many are actually looking to go back for other military, you were kinda the biggest proponent of that before. Maybe there's some discussion about Mathematics, but I think the overall estimate/rule that by 20 or so turns we could be trading techs is a good call, and probably Alpha first for us works. We would need to do some encouraging of other teams to research worthwhile techs.
I think Quatron can and should afford a granary first - the granary will pay off quicker than the lighthouse ever would anyway, and we might not want to start on Maoi Statues this early. If Quatron is up and running it could even contribute workers/workboats a bit by size 5 or 6, Maoi is almost certainly going to wait on eventual forest chops a little later anyway.
As for the capital, the build of worker => galley => settlers or roughly that is good. I would say, on the flip side of things though, if we end up choosing to settle Resonance/Asymptote first, we could possibly speed things up by forest chops, so if we chop enough forests maybe we could go overseas faster and then get Singularity a little later.
Lastly, I'd just rather use the worker to build wheat farms for Singularity, and yes, let the capital work the spices tile. The spice tile is fine at pop 7; if we don't chop any more forests there we can sit around at pop 7 and build workers/settlers well enough going through.
So I'd summarize - if we are settling on the home island, I would probably
a) use the worker to farm/road Singularity, that's really the only point of getting Singularity up faster.
b) Still get settlers 4 and 5 quick enough to go overseas, and again we'll choose between Resonance or Asymptote first as needed
If for discussion's sake we settle Resonance first, I'd do something like
a) Worker => Galley and the worker mines/chops (probably western hill) while the galley builds.
b) Continue 1-2 more chops while we build like 3 straight settlers/workboat just to get everything out, and then the worker has time to get farms up elsewhere
I think most of us are close to onboard for Alphabet, in fact I especially don't think many are actually looking to go back for other military, you were kinda the biggest proponent of that before. Maybe there's some discussion about Mathematics, but I think the overall estimate/rule that by 20 or so turns we could be trading techs is a good call, and probably Alpha first for us works. We would need to do some encouraging of other teams to research worthwhile techs.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
I can agree to Quatron taking granary etc first, delaying Maoi statues a bit.
I am still for working the mine before anything else, as the added 3 hammers would represent a 25 % productivity increase for the capital, which we would surely need. This does not weaken Singularity per se, with the way I considered it.
I am still against chops ruining the health standards, we need more health resources before I support these chops.
Regarding Alphabet, I guess most people are on board, but there are some misguiding ambiguity flying around, and I think if we let that ambiguity weaken our resolve in negotiations, we may be too non-determined to make a proper technology trade strategy. Yes, I would like to go with the highwire as you call it, as that's the way to apply some opportunism to being the first civ to meet four civs.
I am still for working the mine before anything else, as the added 3 hammers would represent a 25 % productivity increase for the capital, which we would surely need. This does not weaken Singularity per se, with the way I considered it.
I am still against chops ruining the health standards, we need more health resources before I support these chops.
Regarding Alphabet, I guess most people are on board, but there are some misguiding ambiguity flying around, and I think if we let that ambiguity weaken our resolve in negotiations, we may be too non-determined to make a proper technology trade strategy. Yes, I would like to go with the highwire as you call it, as that's the way to apply some opportunism to being the first civ to meet four civs.
See, the thing is the mine is really just a 1 
increase in productivity. It doesn't matter what specific "production-in hammers" we have when we're building settlers/workers anyway, which we will be for a while, and by the time we go back to other production we'd happily have enough mines up, sure. Yes, it gives one more total hammer/food than a forest tile, but the forest still gives 2 food 1 hammer or 1 food 2 hammers. The spices have a commerce thrown on and it's close enough.
In a perfect world, it couldn't hurt, but I'd just say we have other priorities - if we settle Singularity, that choice necessitates that we actually build the improvements for Singularity. If we are settling overseas, we are probably better for a lot more immediate production (and the whole point of going overseas so fast is to get 1-2 cities up asap, for the purpose of claiming land and borders and intimidation. If that's not the goal, people shouldn't be supporting that option, because economically Resonance is a worse call right now, it will cost more maintenance and takes more investment in workboats right away to grow) served by chopping a forest or two for immediate productivity - I'd go after the western grassland hill forest, and the forest on the grass river to the South.
A couple other small things I'd somewhat forgotten though, noticed on my last log-in checking out the Oracle:
-Again, we have our island entirely barb-busted. There isn't any fog anyway, due to our culture, and the warrior is still in the right spot. So no more worries about that.
-I would personally skip over the "channel" by India as that is almost certainly another inlet, and likewise keep heading east with the Rio Grande. Revealing one more tile on the "bridge" probably will NOT get us trade routes with CDZ - it's because it's ocean again, even if we could see the tile I'm not sure it would help. Tough, but we'll get the trade routes eventually.
increase in productivity. It doesn't matter what specific "production-in hammers" we have when we're building settlers/workers anyway, which we will be for a while, and by the time we go back to other production we'd happily have enough mines up, sure. Yes, it gives one more total hammer/food than a forest tile, but the forest still gives 2 food 1 hammer or 1 food 2 hammers. The spices have a commerce thrown on and it's close enough.In a perfect world, it couldn't hurt, but I'd just say we have other priorities - if we settle Singularity, that choice necessitates that we actually build the improvements for Singularity. If we are settling overseas, we are probably better for a lot more immediate production (and the whole point of going overseas so fast is to get 1-2 cities up asap, for the purpose of claiming land and borders and intimidation. If that's not the goal, people shouldn't be supporting that option, because economically Resonance is a worse call right now, it will cost more maintenance and takes more investment in workboats right away to grow) served by chopping a forest or two for immediate productivity - I'd go after the western grassland hill forest, and the forest on the grass river to the South.
A couple other small things I'd somewhat forgotten though, noticed on my last log-in checking out the Oracle:
-Again, we have our island entirely barb-busted. There isn't any fog anyway, due to our culture, and the warrior is still in the right spot. So no more worries about that.
-I would personally skip over the "channel" by India as that is almost certainly another inlet, and likewise keep heading east with the Rio Grande. Revealing one more tile on the "bridge" probably will NOT get us trade routes with CDZ - it's because it's ocean again, even if we could see the tile I'm not sure it would help. Tough, but we'll get the trade routes eventually.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
All rite Earthling, you have me somewhat convinced on the trade-off forest vs. mined hill.
I am still for settling Resonance third, in order to get better lead time, also in the sense of culture expansion there. We are now waiting for a tiebreaker that will make us decide on Singularity or Resonance. I decided to make this a vote, so the people with an opinion, yet without the interest to argue, would have a say in what choice we made.
I will not sit down and cry if Singularity got the preference either, and will work around that.
Thats a sound economic decision, yet the negatives go by a slower expansion on the other side.
What WOULD frustrate me, would be the delay of Alphabet for some odd reason. I find it quite the paradox that people here state that a trade of tech could happen by itself. I do not rely on finding a benevolent team with alphabet sorting things out for us, at all. I rather take my chances and trade with whom is willing.
I am still for settling Resonance third, in order to get better lead time, also in the sense of culture expansion there. We are now waiting for a tiebreaker that will make us decide on Singularity or Resonance. I decided to make this a vote, so the people with an opinion, yet without the interest to argue, would have a say in what choice we made.
I will not sit down and cry if Singularity got the preference either, and will work around that.
Thats a sound economic decision, yet the negatives go by a slower expansion on the other side.
What WOULD frustrate me, would be the delay of Alphabet for some odd reason. I find it quite the paradox that people here state that a trade of tech could happen by itself. I do not rely on finding a benevolent team with alphabet sorting things out for us, at all. I rather take my chances and trade with whom is willing.
Ok, I'm not trying to shout over people either, and hashing out the best course of tile-by-tile stuff I know is tedious, so of course I can always overlook things too.
Again I do certainly agree the team deciding democratically on our actual decision on settling is a good call. It's just that, I want to be sure we have the best plan, regardless of what the choice is - if we settle Singularity, we build up Singularity. Singularity should have two wheats and maybe an iron mine - might as well get those tiles improved, worth more than a vanilla tile in the capital. If we settle overseas, I'd say let's hurry up both settlers to get Resonance and Asymptote as quickly as is reasonable.
I don't think there are too many team members who are proposing something odd against Alphabet, but I said that in the tech thread. Some may want to be flexible, we have to admit that if India/CDZ comes forward with some really weird plan, we'd have to adapt. But we're agreed on writing, in a few more turns might have the clear picture of what CDZ and India want to trade - I'm sure it will work out.
Again I do certainly agree the team deciding democratically on our actual decision on settling is a good call. It's just that, I want to be sure we have the best plan, regardless of what the choice is - if we settle Singularity, we build up Singularity. Singularity should have two wheats and maybe an iron mine - might as well get those tiles improved, worth more than a vanilla tile in the capital. If we settle overseas, I'd say let's hurry up both settlers to get Resonance and Asymptote as quickly as is reasonable.
I don't think there are too many team members who are proposing something odd against Alphabet, but I said that in the tech thread. Some may want to be flexible, we have to admit that if India/CDZ comes forward with some really weird plan, we'd have to adapt. But we're agreed on writing, in a few more turns might have the clear picture of what CDZ and India want to trade - I'm sure it will work out.
cav scout
The Continuum
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So we are going to build a worker now to go road a farm for Singularity, which won't be founded for many more turns? It seems silly to make a worker before we need him, to make improvement before we need them. Idle improvements don't do anything for us.
The opportunity costs:
1. Delaying pop 7 by 5 turns and the extra and 
this entails.
2. Delaying getting our warrior over to the mainland so we can have a more informed discussion about where to found cities.
3. Taking 5 turns to build the worker instead of 4 turns if you build the galley and warrior first.
I understand the instinct to get workers out, and we will believe me. We will have the first farm ready for Singularity before it is founded. Think of it as just in time logistics.
The opportunity costs:
1. Delaying pop 7 by 5 turns and the extra
and this entails.2. Delaying getting our warrior over to the mainland so we can have a more informed discussion about where to found cities.
3. Taking 5 turns to build the worker instead of 4 turns if you build the galley and warrior first.
I understand the instinct to get workers out, and we will believe me. We will have the first farm ready for Singularity before it is founded. Think of it as just in time logistics.
Well, you're saying we're going with Resonance first then? In which case, yes, we could consider a straight galley => (warrior if needed) => settler, that is the fastest way over there. A worker doing some chops wouldn't be too bad, but I wouldn't have the worker do other stuff if we're not settling on the home island next/soon, because then it would go unused.
I should say, that "when" we settle Singularity, yes, all we really need is the worker around there 7 or 8 turns beforehand for roads and the first farm; it'll get the second farm after the city founded and mines/other stuff eventually. So it depends on when we settle Singularity, naturally. Again I'll accept a vote the other way and if you're willing to switch too we could determine our optimal path for Resonance then.
I should say, that "when" we settle Singularity, yes, all we really need is the worker around there 7 or 8 turns beforehand for roads and the first farm; it'll get the second farm after the city founded and mines/other stuff eventually. So it depends on when we settle Singularity, naturally. Again I'll accept a vote the other way and if you're willing to switch too we could determine our optimal path for Resonance then.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
With Mr Banana on board for the mainland, I now also support galley straight after the warrior.
Yeah, let's do that then, I'll also accede on going to the mainland, it looks like the vote is going that way. I'm sure it'll be fine by all of us.
My thoughts on remaining plans then, after the current settler/finishing the warrior:
galley => worker => settler - pointless, I agree, it delays the settler if that first settler here is key, and if the goal was for the worker, might as well do it straight out
galley => settler really pretty solid. We'll determine if a second settler, a workboat, or what comes next. I'd be onboard with this, I think it will be the majority choice anyway, a short term and simple plan that we then adjust for workboats or whatever afterwards.
worker => galley => settler - it would pay off or balance out over a bit longer time, though we could also feel comfortable with two settlers straight at the end if we want, and we regain productivity if we forest chop, if not there's no need for the worker yet (not settling Singularity yet here)
Of course throwing in one more warrior anywhere is trivial but we should have two able to go overseas no matter what, and if something happens we can adapt after that - two warriors when the galley first heads out is an ok start, I assume we won't lose them both/one will be ready to garrison Resonance.
My thoughts on remaining plans then, after the current settler/finishing the warrior:
galley => worker => settler - pointless, I agree, it delays the settler if that first settler here is key, and if the goal was for the worker, might as well do it straight out
galley => settler really pretty solid. We'll determine if a second settler, a workboat, or what comes next. I'd be onboard with this, I think it will be the majority choice anyway, a short term and simple plan that we then adjust for workboats or whatever afterwards.
worker => galley => settler - it would pay off or balance out over a bit longer time, though we could also feel comfortable with two settlers straight at the end if we want, and we regain productivity if we forest chop, if not there's no need for the worker yet (not settling Singularity yet here)
Of course throwing in one more warrior anywhere is trivial but we should have two able to go overseas no matter what, and if something happens we can adapt after that - two warriors when the galley first heads out is an ok start, I assume we won't lose them both/one will be ready to garrison Resonance.
cav scout
The Continuum
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If we go galley before worker than we should start the galley immediately after the settler is finished (and wait to finish that partial warrior). The galley can drop off the first warrior and then come back and pick up the newly finished 2nd one.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
We'll start losing hammers on the partial warrior though. Still we could check if it shaves a turn off the galley or not - we might get part of the overflow anyway.
Think the warrior is 12/15 Not sure if our cap will be making 8 or 9 a turn, but it's 6-7 turns of production, and the 3 hammers might not make a difference. (Galley is 50 iirc). Anyway if we aren't growing to seven by the time the galley is done we might throw in another/part of a warrior anyway.
Think the warrior is 12/15
Not sure if our cap will be making 8 or 9 a turn, but it's 6-7 turns of production, and the 3 hammers might not make a difference. (Galley is 50 iirc). Anyway if we aren't growing to seven by the time the galley is done we might throw in another/part of a warrior anyway.
