Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer

[Narz]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681/

Power of prayer flunks an unusual test
Large study had Christians pray for heart-surgery patients

March 30, 2006

NEW YORK - In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

Researchers emphasized that their work can't address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said.

They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.
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Critics said the question of God's reaction to prayers simply can't be explored by scientific study.

The work, which followed about 1,800 patients at six medical centers, was financed by the Templeton Foundation, which supports research into science and religion. It will appear in the American Heart Journal.

Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School and other scientists tested the effect of having three Christian groups pray for particular patients, starting the night before surgery and continuing for two weeks. The volunteers prayed for "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications" for specific patients, for whom they were given the first name and first initial of the last name.

The patients, meanwhile, were split into three groups of about 600 apiece: those who knew they were being prayed for, those who were prayed for but only knew it was a possibility, and those who weren't prayed for but were told it was a possibility.

The researchers didn't ask patients or their families and friends to alter any plans they had for prayer, saying such a step would have been unethical and impractical.

The study looked for any complications within 30 days of the surgery. Results showed no effect of prayer on complication-free recovery. But 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for developed a complication, versus 52 percent of those who were told it was just a possibility.

Dr. Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at the Duke University Medical Center, who didn't take part in the study, said the results didn't surprise him.

"There are no scientific grounds to expect a result and there are no real theological grounds to expect a result either," he said. "There is no god in either the Christian, Jewish or Moslem scriptures that can be constrained to the point that they can be predicted."

Within the Christian tradition, God would be expected to be concerned with a person's eternal salvation, he said, and "why would God change his plans for a particular person just because they're in a research study?"

Science, he said, "is not designed to study the supernatural."

Thoughts??

 

[silver 2039]

heh they needed a study for this? haha I could have told u that myself.

 

[Riffraff]

heh they needed a study for this? haha I could have told u that myself.

additionally, people who believe in prayer can simply claim that prayer lies outside our realm of reason and can therefore not be tested or scientifically.

 

[MjM]

LINK NARZ APRIL FOOLz JOKE LOL

 

[Narz]

I added the link just now.

Actually it's an old article I now notice. The guy who posted it posted it on March 31st (and the article is from the 30th just of last year).

 

[Perfection]

additionally, people who believe in prayer can simply claim that prayer lies outside our realm of reason and can therefore not be tested or scientifically.

Of course, with that we can never know if it works.

 

[El_Machinae]

When they tried randomising the patients, God put all the ones that He wouldn't normally heal (without prayer) into the batch that received prayer; thus still answering the prayers but obfuscating his effects.

 

[Perfection]

When they tried randomising the patients, God put all the ones that He wouldn't normally heal (without prayer) into the batch that received prayer; thus still answering the prayers but obfuscating his effects.

Huh?!

Wanna run that over again, maybe with visual aids?

 

[classical_hero]

This something that is impossible to test.

 

[Brighteye]

God moves in mysterious ways his wonders to perform.
Perhaps they weren't the right sort of Christians, so God punished those who were favoured by the heretics.
Only CofE prayers have any benefit.

 

[classical_hero]

How can they even know if the prayer was properly aimed? How do they know that as a result of the prayer that they were saved from something much worse that could have happened?

 

[carlosMM]

Well, no surprise there?

And equally unsurprising: the religionists immediately come up with strange excuses.

Now, could someone please explain why there should be 'wrong' Christian? AFAIK, Jesus scolded people for thumping their noses at well-meaning 'others'.

 

[Brighteye]

It's a basic tenet of existence: other people are wrong.

This is the rule that makes the world go round. Without it almost all the world's population would commit suicide in an orgy of self-doubt and shattered pride.

To make this happen is my dream.

 

[Sparta]

It's a basic tenet of existence: other people are wrong.

This is the rule that makes the world go round. Without it almost all the world's population would commit suicide in an orgy of self-doubt and shattered pride.

To make this happen is my dream.

- All too true.

I wish you the best of luck in your ambitious endeavor.

 

[Brighteye]

Why thank you!
I shall now use the power of prayer to have God give you my dream too. Although according to this study you'll just develop extra complications instead.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

They do 'experiments' like this every now and then. Depending on the preexisting bias, the result go either way. Sometimes the studies indicate positive measurable results from prayer. Healing rates accelerated, things like that. I dont know. Like so many other things, it boils down to whatever youre comfortable believing.

 

[Elrohir]

They can't prove that God didn't take out all the people He planned to heal from the group. They can't prove true Christians were the ones praying. They can't prove that prayer does, or doesn't work. So why waste your time?

 

[puglover]

This is on the level of saying, "If God existed, he would lift this chair."

I don't think God is going to bow to our studies and do tricks for us. His will is his will.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Whats being tested here isnt whether God exists or answers prayers. Whats being studied is the ability of the mind (1000 minds in this case) to positively impact a a person health.

Which is why I fond it odd that they told all of the patients involved about the experiment, and that they either were, or might be prayed for. Why skew the results by introducing the minds and intent of the patients?

edit: also, the people who were prayed for had slightly higher rates of complications. Why isnt that seen as significant?

 

[skadistic]

edit: also, the people who were prayed for had slightly higher rates of complications. Why isnt that seen as significant?

Is it possible that since the test subjects knew they were being prayed for they subconciously relaxed the part of the brain that controls healing? Like a reverse placibo or some such thing?