Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer

[Bill3000]

Well, how exactly do you expect there to be a falsifiable test of prayer if all you can do is get justifications for why it wouldn't work?

 

[Shylock]

Maybe the reception was bad that day.

 

[mdwh]

This is on the level of saying, "If God existed, he would lift this chair."

I don't think God is going to bow to our studies and do tricks for us. His will is his will.

In which case, what's the point in praying for help?

 

[Mirc]

^ Praying for a study is not like praying for help.

 

[mdwh]

^ Praying for a study is not like praying for help.

These people weren't in need of help?

 

[White Elk]

How can this be proved here? I have first hand witnessed that which defies current scientiifc experiance. Many others have witnessed it with me. One occurance was when at the end of a Lakota Sundance ceromony I offered water to the tree which we killed for our ceremony. I offered this water to honour the sacrifice for which this tree had allowed us to base our ceremony on. Immediatly upon offering the water it began to briefly rain. No clouds, no indication of precipition, just dry 100+ degree heat with clear baking skies. There are many more... such as when an elder told me that the womens Tipi would be blown over upside down... I was firekeeper and it was my task to attend to all things that the Sundancers required. And so this was in my realm of responsibilty. And sure enough that tipi was blown upside down in such a way that defied gravity... for some seconds anyway. That warning gave me time to react in such as way as to right this upset. There are many many more.

For this topic I will say that I have seen that which shows me that many minds praying can be far more effective than just a few hands working. Even in the ceramony to harvest the tree from which was the center of our ceremony. This Tree was brought to us from a virgins first chop and then was caught as it fell upon us! It was to never touch the ground. We caught these great trees in our arms as they fell and then carried them to then center of our ceremony! With that and much more we worked our heart outs! But without the support of others we would have been lost and damaged and suffered greatly. Heart was never enough! It was the communal prayer which made the differance between life and death and extreme suffering! Men and Women SunDancers put themselves in a place of suffering to better the lives of their community. Their community put themselves in such a place as to suffer to lessen the suffering of those that suffered for us. But none of us suffered due to our coummunal prayer. The Dancers went without food and water in extreme conditions for Four Days. And the FireKeepers worked barefoot within fires that towered over us. None sufferered for others were there to share the communal burden. We all (Sundancers and Firekeepers) were in postion to suffer greatly. But for the support of those who supported us, we suffered not! We defied science and this was due to the support of others!!!

 

[MrCynical]

Praying for a study is not like praying for help

The snag with that argument is that these people were in need of help. So God only helps when he's not being studied? It's some sort of divine shunning for daring to test him?

How about if the patients are actually unaware they are being studied? Would this still kick in? How about if the study is carried out entirely in retrospect, with neither patients or the praying people aware they will be studied? I can't morally justify refusing help under any circumstances, let alone just because someone's seeing if help actually arrives.

Bottom line is "You shall not put God to the test" is a cop out which hides a multitude of problems, since in provides another excuse for the ineffectiveness of prayer. If you think about it anyone who ever prays, whether for themselves or for another, is putting God to the test, so should this bit read "You shall not put your God to a scientifically performed test on a significant sample size?"

Ultimately I always come back to the same point. A God of any moral worth would provide any help he can give regardless of whether it was prayed for, who was praying or who was watching. Prayer is therefore merely at best a way to comfort people with (as likely to be false as not) hope.

 

[White Elk]

For me and my experiance, which has been shared by others... is that shite happens which is as of yet, is unexplained by science. When people earnestly gather as individuals for a common purpose, they seem to acheive that which would otherwise be deemed impossible, or at least improbable! From what I have witnessed with my own questionining mind, I do bear witness to that which would be called miracles.

 

[White Elk]

Bottom line is "You shall not put God to the test" is a cop out which hides a multitude of problems, since in provides another excuse for the ineffectiveness of prayer.

I put God to the test and I did so with all my heart. To casually search for an answer leads to no real answer. One must earnestly seek it. For many years I sought answer to God. From age 12 I earnestly started and in my mid twenties I found some real answer. I sought answers with all my heart and risked my body to discover. I was answered. I dont know what God is and I reject the notion that God is a single supreme being rulling over us... but from what i have experianced personally I will confidentally say that we tappped into something beyond ourselves and acheived something which was greater than us as individuals and even greater than us as community.

Perhaps some of you who seek the answer will join me this summer in ceremony?
To learn for yourselfs your own truths based on earnest discovery??

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, how exactly do you expect there to be a falsifiable test of prayer if all you can do is get justifications for why it wouldn't work?

You can only really do it at a personal level, or at a level where your empathy can read if someone is telling the truth about their feelings.

Many people are 'assured' during prayer that things will turn out as they requested. These people can realise (later) that these assurances are about as reliable as a placebo, and that (putatively) the assurances were sometimes lies. Of course, people will invent many reasons why these lies were not actually lies.

 

[warpus]

Depends on what you think the effects of prayer are.

Well, nobody really seems to know, not even people who believe in it. There is no clear consensus, no hypothesis.. no evidence..

There isn't anything. Just anecdotes.

A good start would be a working hypothesis.

 

[punkbass2000]

You wouldn't believe how prayer works if I told you.

 

[White Elk]

For me it took seeing it in action. Though I could never have seen it within any of the Christian churches which I investigated as a youth. You just have to live it for yourself. Don't just sign up to someone elses program and then turn your mind off.

 

[Masquerouge]

I don't even understand why money and time was wasted in such a "study" in the first place.

 

[Guangxi]

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Looks more like a bad case of constipation.

 

[Masquerouge]

Looks more like a bad case of constipation.

Don't the two usually go hand in hand?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Don't the two usually go hand in hand?

I think somewhere in the Bible God reserves the right to strike dead anyone who bothers him with bowel movement requests.

 

[El_Machinae]

I think somewhere in the Bible God reserves the right to strike dead anyone who bothers him with bowel movement requests.

Yeah, Genesis 17:8

"The Man is not meant for the cheese only, but the grains should be eaten in abundance. Forso the Lord said to Man, "the grain eat more, not the cheese to you only, waste not calls to Me""

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Yet he also said, "blessed are the cheesemakers". Although many thought he wasn't meant to be taken literally and meant all manufacturers of dairy products.