U. N. Corruption branches out into prostituion-enslavement

[IceBlaZe]

Atawa, this conversation started about the UN and you dragged it to the palestinien conflict...
And also you should have knowledge of history if you want to tell the palestinien side.. what you dont know is that the palestinien were promised their homes by the arab countries before they started war on Israel so they 'all' 'went' to refugee camps.
What you also don't know is that the palestinien authority, which is the police authority there, that has buildings built by the EU and weapons supplied by Israel and EU (And maybe USA... dunno) are supposed to arrest the terrorists we are killing!
If the palestinien say they arrested some terrorist and a day after he dies because of an explosion in his car something stinks... And we wont be the ones to wait untill the PA does something, and we certainly preffer a dead terrorist and a dead palestinien, kid or adult, over 10 dead Israelis, wether you like it or not its the truth.

Also, you should also know that each time the Israeli Commando Forces hijack a terrorist in order to 'judge' him 500 palestinien terrorists blow up a mall, or kidnap an airplane, or explode near soldiers, or all of that ****.

You keep mentioning that by killing terrorists we dont give a fair trial, but you should also remember that terrorists are walking time bombs, and I want my government to stop them, terrorist is terrorist, its not like a criminal, innocent untill proven guilty, and all that ****, they are declared terrorists and they are the ones that plan the suicide bombings that kill dozens of innocent Israelis, and yes, I preffer a dead terrorists after an intelligence info rather than 25 dead Israelis and no effect done by the PA.

And what do you have against fences? In our countries borders, we have fences, its as simple as that.

 

[atawa]

and we certainly preffer a dead terrorist and a dead palestinien, kid or adult, over 10 dead Israelis

So you prefer killing innocent children who travel with their father to taking the chance to wait till you have a chance to arrest the father and giving him a trial?

Hmm pretty barbaric country you live in

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Moderator Action: There are several Mid-east threads.
Please return to the topic here.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[IceBlaZe]

I will return to topic, just after one question:
Atawa, In your country, you are the PM.
Your country is under continous terror and as the PM your best concerns are to protect your citizens.
Your intelligence agency got info on a Head Terrorist, a walking time bomb, that each day he lives is one more suicide act.
The Authority of the location of living of the terrorist just arrested him to show the EU they did so, and set him free the day after.
you KNOW that each day he is free, or alive, could be the end to a dozen more of your citizens.
What would you preffer, 12 of your citizens or 2 of theirs?
Its no different then war, and if the citizens give terrorists secure shelter, and the authority does nothing about it, its their problem.

 

[atawa]

Your intelligence agency got info on a Head Terrorist, a walking time bomb, that each day he lives is one more suicide act.

If you kill him, there will be a next, and a next....etc

The Authority of the location of living of the terrorist just arrested him to show the EU they did so, and set him free the day after.

Did Israel supply the PA with evidence of crimes commited?

you KNOW that each day he is free, or alive, could be the end to a dozen more of your citizens.

Then arrest him!! Your special forces and int agencies are supposed to be the best in the world so they should be able to pull this off.
If the PA ,after being supplied with evidense, refuses to extradite him this would be my option.

Its no different then war, and if the citizens give terrorists secure shelter, and the authority does nothing about it, its their problem.

The authority's problem? Yes

The problem of a little boy who was killed becouse his father took him for a drive?? Hell no!

If I was an Israeli I would be deeply shamed off this 'act of war'.


Ok but back to topic

Although I think that the UN is way to expensive for the services they deliver they at least gives a platform where country's can talk on a global scale.
Furthermore, some peacemissions (think of Cambodia and Ethiopia/Eritrea) did have a verry positive effect on the country's.

 

[CurtSibling]

All this arguing crap isn't going to bring that little boy back to life.

Less ignorance may save the lives of more innocents.

 

[Blackadder]

So what could replace the U.N.?

I don't think the world would be better off without a wide-scale organisation co-ordinating to try and end wars. Impartialness seems to be one major problem with the U.N.( so I hear and am told by some in the forum). Another is corruption.
So what, a supercomputer that co-ordinates the world?
Something will have to be changed, better now than wait for a third World War.

Curt= The key word was may

 

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Blackadder
So what could replace the U.N.?

Why are we opperating under the assumption that we need the UN at all?

 

[Maj]

Why are we opperating under the assumption that we need the UN at all?

Would you argue that the UN's shortcomings outweigh its benefits? In an ever globalizing reality, the need to maintain some diplomatic and social coherence between nations is growing, not shrinking.

What should deal with the environmental, social, cultural and diplomatic issues that lie between the nations of the world? The United Nations already covers much of this ground. Other major global organizations like the WTO, Wolrd Bank and IMF focus their attentions primarily on economic links and ties. Other groups like the G7 and G20 ignore the other 100+ nations that exist on this planet. Something is needed to fill the gap.

Sad how the pursuit for wealth and power brings us closer together ... yet drives us further apart.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

-Maj

 

[Simon Darkshade]

"U. N. Corruption branches out into prostituion-enslavement"

WHAT!!!! I've got more competition?! Oh, diddly!

I find myself concuring with Maj. The UN does have a role to play, and has done some good in the past on a variety of occasions. Balanced against this are its bias in some circumstances, and its effective irrelevance in others. I think it could be useful as an international forum, if remodelled. How, I am not sure, to be honest.

It is flawed, like many organisations, but does seem to me to have the potential for a relevant role in international relations in the future, albeit with some restructuring to take into account the changes in the world order, and the increased role of non-state actors in international affairs compared to the 1940s.





(P.S: Relating to the exchange in this thread earlier, just a few factual points of clarification. Firstly, the process whereby Israel takes out a terrorist involves a trial in absentia, conducted with legal representation.
Secondly, as to why Israel does not reveal its proof the PA, it is a matter of protecting sources in many cases. An example of this can be seen in WW2, when the US military broke Japanese radio codes, and intercepted traffic telling of the massacre of several hundred civilians on Wake Island. This proof of inhumanity/crime could not be revealed at the time as it would have revealed to the Japanese that the US had broken their codes.)

 

[VoodooAce]

Originally posted by rmsharpe


Also, on the topic of "racism", I'll admit -- I believe in racial profiling, so you can demonize me all you like, but would YOU be willing to die because you wanted to save an Arab two minutes of time?

I agree. Ever since that damned Tim McVeigh blew up that building, I've been calling for some kind of controls placed on the scourge of America....white Christians!!!

I think I was on the same flight as one of them....from L.A. to Vegas, and man, I was sh!tting bricks the whole time.

Crazy @$$ Christians.

And, yes, it is the same whether you're detaining Arabs or Americans. YES!!!! Blaming all whites (like me) for Tim McVeigh is EXACTLY the same as blaming all Arabs thinks to Osama.

If you disagree, I'm betting you're white. It was very appropriate for you to place that 'under the topic of racism' MSharpe.

And, it's obvious to me that it's better to have some form of global forum than none at all. The UN was screwed over from the beginnning being placed in the middle of the cold war.

 

[VoodooAce]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
I will return to topic, just after one question:
Atawa, In your country, you are the PM.
Your country is under continous terror and as the PM your best concerns are to protect your citizens.
Your intelligence agency got info on a Head Terrorist, a walking time bomb, that each day he lives is one more suicide act.
The Authority of the location of living of the terrorist just arrested him to show the EU they did so, and set him free the day after.
you KNOW that each day he is free, or alive, could be the end to a dozen more of your citizens.
What would you preffer, 12 of your citizens or 2 of theirs?
Its no different then war, and if the citizens give terrorists secure shelter, and the authority does nothing about it, its their problem.

For one thing, if I'm the PM of a country with the kind of history that Israel has, in a situation such as existed last year, sitting on a powder keg and all, I hope I wouldn't be a complete freakin' MORON and light up a smoke.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by rmsharpe


Also, on the topic of "racism", I'll admit -- I believe in racial profiling, so you can demonize me all you like, but would YOU be willing to die because you wanted to save an Arab two minutes of time?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by VoodooAce


I agree. Ever since that damned Tim McVeigh blew up that building, I've been calling for some kind of controls placed on the scourge of America....white Christians!!!

I think I was on the same flight as one of them....from L.A. to Vegas, and man, I was sh!tting bricks the whole time.

Crazy @$$ Christians.

And, yes, it is the same whether you're detaining Arabs or Americans. YES!!!! Blaming all whites (like me) for Tim McVeigh is EXACTLY the same as blaming all Arabs thinks to Osama.

If you disagree, I'm betting you're white. It was very appropriate for you to place that 'under the topic of racism' MSharpe.

And, it's obvious to me that it's better to have some form of global forum than none at all. The UN was screwed over from the beginnning being placed in the middle of the cold war.

I notice that you never did answer his question. Why don't you answer the question?

 

[Simon Darkshade]

In regards to racial profiling, I read somewhere an argument about it that was rather convincing: When they are looking for young male Arab Islamic terrorists, is there a point in bringing in elderly Chinese women just to be fair and impartial? It makes sense to me, and unless I missed something, they caught McVeigh and his accomplice. They haven't got all the Al Qaeda operatives yet.

 

[VoodooAce]

Answer the question?

My point is that racial profiling is wrong, wrong, wrong.

The ONLY reason you disagree is because you are not being discriminated against....or you don't understand the value AND fragility of a free society. I for one fully understand that once you begin to chip away at the fabric that is our Bill of Rights it gets easier and easier.....until it is worthless.

People will argue that, say it's no big deal, it makes sense, etc....

Well, I disagree. I'm all for preserving the integrity of the Bill of Rights rather than adhering to it when it suits me, and sweeping it under a rug when it doesn't.

And, yes, you are correct. McVeigh was caught and murdered. Was your point that once Bin Laden is caught that this should all end? I agree with you 100% there.

But there are plenty of crazy white christians around, but I don't discriminate against them.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

I can understand where you are coming from VoodooAce, and would agree that I might think differently on the matter if it was happening to me. After all, one does basically come from a fairly privileged group - white male, living in first world, privately educated, university graduate, job, income, aristocratic links etc, etc.

My point is that they need to get these suckers. Once that is done, there the need for racial profiling can be put to one side. We know what groups these terrorists are coming from, so it makes sense to concentrate on these. Doesn't mean all of these types of people are guilty or wrong, or that people from other groups are blameless paragons.

It is simple common sense. When chasing a rabid dog with black fur, you do not hair off after a zebra. OK, maybe that's a little extreme. How about a poodle with a white coat?

There was a case in Australia recently where the police authorities got the noses of some out of joint by saying that they were looking for youths of a certain ethnic group in connection with a crime. That's racism, the cries rang out.

I notice you wrote McVeigh was murdered, but that's old news, so I'll agree to differ.

These individuals have proven that nothing is too heinous for them to do. In such cases, all stops must be pulled out to eliminate them and their threat to society.

Perhaps my opinions will be a little different as we have no Bill of Rights down here, yet we get along perfectly fine, and there is no fascist authoritarian dictatorship.

A free society is fragile; but I'd rather have a society than a nuclear ground zero from an extremist attack.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

...are you stupid or something?

'Racial Profiling is Bad bad, etc...'

So you're saying that if you were next in line to be let on a bus, and you were, say a 165cm Chinese woman, it wouldn't bother you in the slightest to be strip-searched because the police were looking for a 210cm Caucasian man wanted for multiple armed robberies? Don't you think it would not only be a waste of your time, but also of the officers' time, when they could be searching only tall Caucasian men? Doesn't that viewpoint strike you as just the least bit unreasonable?

 

[amadeus]

I still haven't seen VoodooAce admit that he'd rather die than take two minutes away from an Arab guy at an airport.

 

[allan]

From what I understand, the term "racial profiling" does not refer to actions taken in hunting down a known suspect, but rather to the practice in some places of cops watching, harassing, or pulling over more blacks (or whomever) than other races, especially if they are in the "wrong" neighborhood, with the aim of finding something they can arrest them for. This HAS happened and been documented in many cities, and it is wrong. And much of it seems to stem from our ongoing and futile "War on [some] Drugs" (TM).

Yes, if police have a description from witnesses of someone who actually DID a crime, of course they should only pursue people who fit that description. That is normal police work, not "racial profiling".

But stopping a driver because he is black, or (what happened to my aunt and her new husband, in a wealthy and predominantly white suburb of Pittsburgh) a mixed-race couple, without real cause IS racial profiling. I tend to be the type of guy who minds his own business and likes to walk around or drive around without being bothered (and I obey the rules of the road), and if *I* had a tendency to be stopped and questioned often because I merely LOOKED like I could be a criminal, in the minds of some cops, I tell you that would bother me no end--so I guess I can relate.

Now liberals may end up blowing this problem out of proportion, and I CERTAINLY would not want counterefforts to go so far as to interfere with LEGITIMATE police work (I envision a nightmare of race-based "arrest quotas" or something), but it IS a problem nonetheless--I've seen it happen, and have heard too many accounts of it. Many GOOD cops have even acknowledged that the problem exists, and cops in general are VERY reluctant to let scandalous information about their own leak outside the force.

Bottom line--the cops should go about their business with the attitude that people are innocent unless they actually SEE (or have other evidence, or witness testimony) otherwise. Too often cops walk around overly suspicious of everybody, or of certain people. Yes perhaps some of this is "survival skill" in a dangerous job. But the War on Drugs in particular has led to an increase in this paranoia--because it is so futile, and the trade is so dangerous when it doesn't have to be. It has manufactured "criminals" that weren't really there before, "necessitated" increased invasions of people's privacy, and made our inner city neighborhoods far more dangerous than they've ever been. So I can understand why cops could become antagonistic of people--they're fighting a losing battle, against an "enemy" that could be anyone on the street really. Stop the War on Drugs, return to our values of liberty in general, and the percieved "need" for racial profiling will vanish. I guarantee it....

 

[allan]

"I still haven't seen VoodooAce admit that he'd rather die than take two minutes away from an Arab guy at an airport."

Actually I flew on two separate trips in the last three months, and once I was randomly picked to go through extra screening at the gate (after going through the normal drill at security), and it didn't bother me IN THE LEAST. Security is not just attempting to screen for terrorists per se, but are enforcing the law, which now states that you cannot bring sharp objects onto airplanes. I may be white and speak English as a native, but I TOO am subject to those laws.

If they DON'T screen everybody, what's to stop a terrorist from recruiting a native sympathizer to carry a weapon aboard for him, or from slipping the weapon into his bag and then recovering it later? Also, a terrorist doesn't necessarily have to be Arab (example: McVeigh)--he or she could even be an elderly Chinese. A terrorist's main tactic is "blending in" and looking harmless, after all. And that could include using sophisticated disguises, don't forget that.

And searching EVERYBODY isn't racial profiling--and search everybody is what they SHOULD do. So they can waste two minutes of MY time, too--I have no problem with that.