[RD] Undermining discussion of real issue by over-stressing on action and solution.

[H4run]

So just today when I open my facebook page, my University friend, who is working in NGO for Environment advocacy and conservation, his FB status is in a huge jeopardy.

This is what happened, he post a status that mentioned:

"Now everyone looking after oxygen tank, while at the same time you don't realize and give any important to deforestation which is one of the most important source for Oxygen. By loving our nature, we are protecting peoples that we love"

He gets so many messages of support but one guy came in and wrote him:

"Pretentious! how many tree you already planted?"

His friend jump to his defense, he explained that they already do this since University (in organization) till now they are still working in NGO, but he pressing the same question "ok, but how much do you guys planted?" and put another post that saying basically

"Don't think that you all did your best, some peoples here might already planted more trees than you guys, blablba".

I mean obviously it's impossible to pin-point how many tree they have planted, this question is obviously serve just to negate the real issue and undermined whatever they are doing is trivial compare to "x", or worst if one promoting such idea without doing those work he would just kill his character instantly on the spot, while deforestation is a real issue in Indonesia, but this guy just want to shut-down discussion about this topic.

So in the end, they learn that, he was an activist and also a leader of small mining association in Indonesia, that tells us something indeed. So my friend just ending up deleting him from his friend list, which is good.

But I found this kind of fallacies quite often, especially among the Indonesian leftish who are very much effected by Maoist thought who abhor exchanging ideas and discussion and put over-emphasis to movement and action.

Once when I criticize Indonesian government in one of a discord channel, a leftish activist keep asking me the same question "so if you think our government is bad, what is the solution?" and once in awhile trying to undermine whatever answer I gave him by saying "ahhh that's rhetoric" "that's semantic" and keep stressing the question over and over again until the discussion went really ugly.

Another similar phony argumentation like

"so what is the action?"
"so what are you suggesting we do now? or is this just another intellectual masturbation?"

The funny things about that is, many of these peoples are turned into government or corporate goons that used their student organizational experience to manage masses and shut down opposition, of course after we graduate most of us leave activism and get a job or make money, unless if we are making money through our activism, like working in NGO.

What do you guys think about it? do you guys also find annoying people like this? do you know them, and what they do, but unable to categorize them and form a way to deal with them effectively? Or do you have a categorization or a way to dealt with them?

Thank you for reading!

 

[Narz]

I don't think it's good to shut down someone w ideas because they haven't done much action yet but at the same time w the internet and social media it becomes very easy to talk a good talk without any action whatsoever.

The world's problems won't be solved by us emoting about them online.

 

[Gorbles]

There's a big stretch between "won't be solved" and "won't in any way help", of course. You're right, Narz, in that with the Internet as it is, it is very easy to talk a good talk and do nothing more than that. But likewise, there are people who make a difference, and part of them doing that involves "emoting about it online" (for various definitions of online activities that count as emotes, I dunno).

Like, to the general topic, it's something I catch myself doing (and did more the younger I was). I see a problem, I want a solution. I'm solutions-oriented, it's how I'm wired. But as I get older, I appreciate more that sometimes, or even a lot of the time (depending on context) it's good to just vent about something. We can't all be experts in the relevant fields.

However, in my opinion, that comes with the flipside. If you recognise that you're just venting, or just pointing out the problems (generic "you", not aimed at anyone in this thread), you also have to accept that your criticism might already be something people or working on. It's a hard line to walk, because there's not necessarily merit in accepting someone's opinion because they seem or claim to be more qualified. But also sometimes if a person is qualified, then their opinions will generally be better-informed and might teach you something you don't know. The Internet makes this especially difficult to work through, though. There's always this emphasis on someone having to win, and someone having to lose.

 

[H4run]

I don't think it's good to shut down someone w ideas because they haven't done much action yet but at the same time w the internet and social media it becomes very easy to talk a good talk without any action whatsoever.

The world's problems won't be solved by us emoting about them online.

True true, that's exactly what I meant, he just shot down the idea using the gesture "so? what do you want to do about it? ha? ha?" While spreading awareness about collusion, corruption, nepotism, without necessarily having an instant solution is a road toward the solution.

I believe spreading awareness is matter, if people unable to do something about it at least makes them spread awareness. Even if that is too hard for them at least they acknowledge and know that there are problems.

We cannot find a solution if we are not in consensus there is an actual problem, only after we agree that there are problem, the road to solution is pave.

But I also believe in todays world, activism and spreading awareness due to internet already made very easy. It's very easy to donate to a cause, sign petition, follow a cause or even click a like you already contribute "something" no matter how small it is to the cause.

There's a big stretch between "won't be solved" and "won't in any way help", of course. You're right, Narz, in that with the Internet as it is, it is very easy to talk a good talk and do nothing more than that. But likewise, there are people who make a difference, and part of them doing that involves "emoting about it online" (for various definitions of online activities that count as emotes, I dunno).

Like, to the general topic, it's something I catch myself doing (and did more the younger I was). I see a problem, I want a solution. I'm solutions-oriented, it's how I'm wired. But as I get older, I appreciate more that sometimes, or even a lot of the time (depending on context) it's good to just vent about something. We can't all be experts in the relevant fields.

However, in my opinion, that comes with the flipside. If you recognise that you're just venting, or just pointing out the problems (generic "you", not aimed at anyone in this thread), you also have to accept that your criticism might already be something people or working on. It's a hard line to walk, because there's not necessarily merit in accepting someone's opinion because they seem or claim to be more qualified. But also sometimes if a person is qualified, then their opinions will generally be better-informed and might teach you something you don't know. The Internet makes this especially difficult to work through, though. There's always this emphasis on someone having to win, and someone having to lose.

I also tend to focus more on a solution. But as I said to Narz, if we are not collectively sufficient enough to agree that there is a problem, cutting the discussion directly to act and solution is just a way to cut the spread of awareness. And it's very alright to talk about a problem without having a solution in the first place, like, if the way political campaign and how it funds tend to open a road for corruption and powerplay, I can express that point of view without necessarily having any solution what is the best system to anticipated that, because I'm not grounded in state-crafting but I know and notice a problem that other peoples fails to admit.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

So just today when I open my facebook page, my University friend, who is working in NGO for Environment advocacy and conservation, his FB status is in a huge jeopardy.

This is what happened, he post a status that mentioned:

"Now everyone looking after oxygen tank, while at the same time you don't realize and give any important to deforestation which is one of the most important source for Oxygen. By loving our nature, we are protecting peoples that we love"

He gets so many messages of support but one guy came in and wrote him:

"Pretentious! how many tree you already planted?"

His friend jump to his defense, he explained that they already do this since University (in organization) till now they are still working in NGO, but he pressing the same question "ok, but how much do you guys planted?" and put another post that saying basically

"Don't think that you all did your best, some peoples here might already planted more trees than you guys, blablba".

I mean obviously it's impossible to pin-point how many tree they have planted, this question is obviously serve just to negate the real issue and undermined whatever they are doing is trivial compare to "x", or worst if one promoting such idea without doing those work he would just kill his character instantly on the spot, while deforestation is a real issue in Indonesia, but this guy just want to shut-down discussion about this topic.

So in the end, they learn that, he was an activist and also a leader of small mining association in Indonesia, that tells us something indeed. So my friend just ending up deleting him from his friend list, which is good.

But I found this kind of fallacies quite often, especially among the Indonesian leftish who are very much effected by Maoist thought who abhor exchanging ideas and discussion and put over-emphasis to movement and action.

Once when I criticize Indonesian government in one of a discord channel, a leftish activist keep asking me the same question "so if you think our government is bad, what is the solution?" and once in awhile trying to undermine whatever answer I gave him by saying "ahhh that's rhetoric" "that's semantic" and keep stressing the question over and over again until the discussion went really ugly.

Another similar phony argumentation like

"so what is the action?"
"so what are you suggesting we do now? or is this just another intellectual masturbation?"

The funny things about that is, many of these peoples are turned into government or corporate goons that used their student organizational experience to manage masses and shut down opposition, of course after we graduate most of us leave activism and get a job or make money, unless if we are making money through our activism, like working in NGO.

What do you guys think about it? do you guys also find annoying people like this? do you know them, and what they do, but unable to categorize them and form a way to deal with them effectively? Or do you have a categorization or a way to dealt with them?

Thank you for reading!

You've just mostly described a "conversation" (not really a conversation, more of an argument) I had on FB with some idiot in Medicine Hat regarding the curriculum issue going on in my province.

It doesn't matter what anyone says - she either calls them liars or berates them for criticizing the Minister of Education (basically Betsy deVos minus the billions and the enthusiasm for children bringing guns to school; there are several memes around with her face on the body of Dolores Umbridge, and it's scary how much of a resemblance there is).

Apparently nobody can dare to criticize Adriana LaGrange (the Minister of Education, who is also my MLA) because we are not MLAs and we "haven't walked a mile in her shoes." Well, she hasn't walked a mile in my shoes, either. And so help me, even though I've only got the first year of a B.Ed. to my credit, I've still got more teaching experience than this minister has.

The person I was arguing with is such a sycophant, it's baffling. It was such a stupid thing, too, as she's been whining because her MLA got kicked out of the party and has to sit as an independent (she's mad at the premier for this, but the fact is that when you call your party leader out in public, being booted from the caucus is something that is expected, whether it's provincial or federal).

So the conversation went like this:

Her: "I DO NOT SUPPORT THE UCP ESPECIALLY SINCE THEY KICKED OUT MY MLA who is now sitting as an independent" (said in response to someone else who accused her - correctly - of always using UCP talking points in her posts)

Me: "They kicked your MLA out of caucus because he was openly disloyal to his party leader. This is what happens in *every* political party... It doesn't matter if it's provincial or federal.

Her: "he was telling the truth and they didn’t ax him BECAUSE HE IS STILL OUR MLS AND IS SITTING AS AN INDEPENDENT. stop talking about stuff you obviously have no clue about as you are wrong"

(This woman has no clue about how legislatures and parliaments work, and I think she's hung up on the word "caucus", thinking that it means the same thing as "legislature"... but as per usual, you can't tell her a damn thing, even when telling her exactly where you got your information.)

Me: "According to Wikipedia, ""caucus" refers to all members of a particular party in Parliament, including senators, or a provincial legislature." Your MLA was kicked out of the party, not the Legislature."

Her: "how about you stop focusing on one aspect and look at the full picture"

(She has not yet told me which "one aspect" I'm focusing on and which "full picture" I should look at. She spouts UCP talking points, and has a bizarre attachment to my MLA even though we live in cities that are 250 miles apart.)

 

[Hygro]

I don't know how expressing words in place of action is an appropriate attack on expressing words in place of action. Your friend is being attacked by lame-o's and should ignore them. We call those people "haters" and lots of songs have advice for how to handle them, as they are a fact of life.

 

[Synobun]

I simply do not engage with people like this. You do not need to accept every invitation to a fight.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Haters are idiots. It's why I no longer have social media accounts. The ennui I was experiencing with the fools in the general public spouting off their misguided BS on social media made me want to retch.

And honestly, I am a much more calm and positive person since I got rid of social media. I don't have to listen to endless conspiracy theories either.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Whoever thought up the "mute" feature on CBC.ca was a genius. The only problem is that there's a limit of how many people you can mute. One of the worst ones figured out that there were a lot of people who had him on mute, so he made a new account that was only slightly different from his old one. His new one is on mute now, too (that jerk can suck all the fun out of every astronomy and space program article just by existing and thinking his anti-science thoughts at it).

 

[H4run]

I don't know how expressing words in place of action is an appropriate attack on expressing words in place of action. Your friend is being attacked by lame-o's and should ignore them. We call those people "haters" and lots of songs have advice for how to handle them, as they are a fact of life.

How you will handle that kind of situation? Yes true they are basically heckling, but the method are all similar:

1. So you are talking about going green huh? How many trees have you planted so far?
2. So you are criticizing our government huh and think the system is corrupted? So what is the solution of the system, now!
3. So you are talking right now huh? Stop talking and discussing this thing, do something!

That's heckling obviously, and yes they are being an ass, but it's wrapped behind those cheap looping argument.

Haters are idiots. It's why I no longer have social media accounts. The ennui I was experiencing with the fools in the general public spouting off their misguided BS on social media made me want to retch.

And honestly, I am a much more calm and positive person since I got rid of social media. I don't have to listen to endless conspiracy theories either.

Oh me too, me too. The last time I update my facebook status is on November 2019. Some cousin or old acquittanced can be just really obnoxious. I got confrontation to one of them from facebook, he just keep butting to the photo that I tagged in, and comment some crap like mocking our alias or whatnot, when I made a status he heckled me with the magic words such as "instead of talking all these good words, just better give charity to your family in need, some real action bro" heck I really really hate him after that moment.

Some peoples are just a complete back-stabber.

 

[H4run]

I simply do not engage with people like this. You do not need to accept every invitation to a fight.

True, I have strong reaction against aggression because I was got bullied and it never stop until I do something about it, so I always in a mindset, if I don't retaliate things would get worst especially when it's within my private space.

Like letting them have the last word, makes them feel that they are winning, this will encourage them to step over you more at other opportunity, because they don't get checked.

I actually still kind a measure and trying to find out, what is the best reaction if things like this happened within the circle.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Bullying... the Minister of Education thinks she's being bullied because nearly everyone who gives her feedback about the new curriculum tells her it's bad (and lists the reasons), and she finally ran whining to one of her favorite opinion writers for the Calgary Sun, who obligingly wrote a column about how the big, bad teachers' union was bullying her. Of course they didn't acknowledge that many of the people who hate this mess aren't only teachers, but also parents, students, and concerned citizens. So I guess I'm part of an evil gang of thousands of bullies, all telling the Minister of Education that it is impossible to expect a student to locate Regina on a map of Alberta because Regina is in Saskatchewan.

 

[Synobun]

True, I have strong reaction against aggression because I was got bullied and it never stop until I do something about it, so I always in a mindset, if I don't retaliate things would get worst especially when it's within my private space.

Like letting them have the last word, makes them feel that they are winning, this will encourage them to step over you more at other opportunity, because they don't get checked.

I actually still kind a measure and trying to find out, what is the best reaction if things like this happened within the circle.

I disagree with you on this, though that will come as no surprise.

Any response you come up with is inevitably going to press up against a key problem: They aren't interested in a good-faith dialogue. They are a concern troll. Anything you reply with that involves them getting attention is a win for them, so unless you're going to become violent, just about anything you come up with is something they're interested in receiving.

There's also the problem that your retaliation here is a reaction. It is not on your terms. They will always be setting the stage for your response.

It is why I do not engage. Robbing them of an audience is the worst thing they can imagine. They feed off toxicity, but toxicity needs a recipient. Even your most clever zinger is to their benefit.

 

[H4run]

They aren't interested in a good-faith dialogue.

This is very true, and there is no way to intellectually submit them. Because they are not there to prove any of their point, they just want to humiliate you. Very true.

Anything you reply with that involves them getting attention is a win for them, so unless you're going to become violent, just about anything you come up with is something they're interested in receiving.

Again true. My cousin example, he just chill after I met him, and level up the tension till he being nice again. But this cannot happened every time, there will be a time when this method will fire back to me eventually.

It is why I do not engage. Robbing them of an audience is the worst thing they can imagine. They feed off toxicity, but toxicity needs a recipient. Even your most clever zinger is to their benefit.

I guess this is the only way. It's impossible to feed the death, so to discuss with someone intentionally shut their cognitive property, and just there to make a clown out of you. They want some action, we just left the theater empty for them.

 

[red_elk]

You don't have to argue with trolls, just ignore them.
Do something productive instead. Plant some trees, for example

 

[H4run]

You don't have to argue with trolls, just ignore them.
Do something productive instead. Plant some trees, for example

Dammit Red Elk

 

[warpus]

Most people who criticize somebody for doing something good are just looking for an argument, or are secretly (or not so secretly) trying to subvert the narrative. IMO

 

[H4run]

Most people who criticize somebody for doing something good are just looking for an argument, or are secretly (or not so secretly) trying to subvert the narrative. IMO

In the end, the guy who try to undermine my friends invitation to be more green, and become more careful in the issue of deforestation, is someone who have strong relation with mining corporation. In that case yes, he is actually seen them (these environment activists) as obstacle and nuisance. Actually that is quite disgusting if you think about it.

 

[Zardnaar]

Haters are idiots. It's why I no longer have social media accounts. The ennui I was experiencing with the fools in the general public spouting off their misguided BS on social media made me want to retch.

And honestly, I am a much more calm and positive person since I got rid of social media. I don't have to listen to endless conspiracy theories either.

This I barely use FB, avoid Twitter and most social media except certain reddit areas.

Had a friend a few years back who noticed I had around 40 FB friends and she thought it was sod all.

She got a shock when I told her I knew every single one. They were all old friends, school mates, family, online gaming friends etc.

She had lots of online friends but didn't know them from at all.

 

[Zardnaar]

Dammit Red Elk

Crimson Moose has a dry sense of humor.