UNGY-01 Another spy attempt

Yes we have the HE but it's a pretty useful unit and could die to a barb archer.

Roster:
Ungy
Rusten
Shuyhe
Pigswill: just played
Mystyfly: UP
Morganknight: On deck

 

ungy, you might have to replace Morganknight for this round, so be ready to jump in after a skip. He hasn't said anything about not being able to play yet in this thread though, but you never know, maybe he's still busy and forgot he joined this game.

Taken from the "pagan culture" sg - written 2 days ago.

 

I should be able to play when my turn comes up tomorrow night, if my turn comes up...

 

Inherited turn - 1000 BC
Switch London to a Worker (due in 4)
London is working an unimproved tile. Fix that asap.
GSpy is due in 16
I see that barb Warriors could raze both our newer cities (Hastings and Nottingham) . Nothing I can do about it but hope.


(1) 975 BC
Those barb Warriors run away

(2) 950 BC
I spot an Aztec settler


(4) 900 BC
London Worker > Settler (due in 5).

(5) 875 BC
York Workboat > Granary
I use that WB to do some scouting

(6) 850 BC
The Khmer get a slave revolt.

(7) 825 BC
Hastings Monument > Granary
Nottingham Monument > Granary
Find another Aztec settler.


(8) 800 BC
Buddhism spreads to Nottingham. I didn't switch yet.


(9) 775 BC
London Settler > Library (due in 7). I picked a Library as, with the gold and two cottages, London creates quite some commerce. The road to link our cities (also using the river) will be completed soon and we get another +1 happy from Ivory so by not building a worker or settler, london slowly grows. I've been stockpiling some gold so when the library is finished, we can do quite some library-powered deficit research.

(11) 725 BC
Pyramids BIDL. QSH built it, as he switches to US the next turn.

(12) 700 BC
Buddhism spreads in York.
Great Lighthouse BIDL. The Khmer built it as I'll find out later.

(13) 675 BC
Temple of Salomon BIDL. We meet Ragnar, who is already in WHEOOH-mode. It can't be us, can it? So I guess its a good thing


I found Canterbury near those horses.


(15) 625 BC (turn 90)
York finishes its Granary > Workboat

---

Situation:
GSpy in London due in 1 as is London's Library. I only built one Worker this set. But as Monty spammed settlers like crazy, I prefer sealing him off first. After the library, London can build a barracks and grow to 7 (using the grasslands cottage) or build a worker straight away. York is one turn away from growth so it'll better grow first and then start on the worker. Also note that there is a barb city N of London.
I really had trouble founding Canterbury. I think on the place it is now, it is a pretty strong cottage city. It'll be able to work 12 cottages (not that sure. usually avoid cottages ). However there is no Food ressource anywhere near there and it's all covered in jungle so it'll take quite some time until it grows...


Map:

Spoiler :

Relations:

Spoiler :

Power Graph: (note Montys graph )

Spoiler :

View attachment ungy-01 BC-0625.CivBeyondSwordSave
In case the save doesn't work (some said that the system has been hacked), Morganknight, PM me and I'll email you the save.

 

Lurker's comment:
After taking a look at that power graph, there's only one thing I can say.
*long whistle* good luck.

Mystyfly, why were you afraid of those barbs? You seem to have forgotten you have the great wall, so barbs aren't a problem...
Suggesting immediate conversion to Buddhism. Also, blocking Monty away from iron won't make him any less dangerous since Jaguars don't need iron.

 

I'm not too surprised by the power graph. Maybe we could fit in some axes? Buddhism is probably worth considering (do we get an espionage bonus for shared religion?).

@ mystyfly. I'm slightly surprised that you didn't settle the fishy gems site first.

 

mystyfly:
Kind a disappointing set I'm sorry to say.

As was already pointed out, we have the GW so the barbs were not a threat.

Did you remember our variant? So we are about done with research and a library is not useful at all.

We had discussed building several workers, not settling another city (and I don't think that would have been the next site anyway).

If we are going to have a chance at beating immortal with this variant we all have to read the posts and play as a team--we can't just pick up the save and run with it.

If anyone doesn't have time to read what's been going on that's fine--just take a skip or a switch.

Anyway..

We need to take Buddhism ASAP--we need to get Monte on our good side.

We had allowed ourselves to research sailing--my bad on leaving it ambiguous but we should definately switch and take sailing first--that's help our economy.

We also need some military--we have Monte as a neighbor not Gandhi.

Roster:
Ungy:On deck
Rusten
Shuyhe
Pigswill:
Mystyfly: just played
Morganknight: UP

 

Well then I'm very sorrry, ungy. But it took veeeery long until the game finally started. I did read everything but I don't have time to read the whole thread a second time before I play.

I just didn't really think about this barb thingie... I mean we also built the GW for the spy points not the barb protection (and also not for the +100% gg..). But that on its own didn't do any bad did it?

Library seems to be totally , I'm sorry for that

Getting out the cities early is good. The earlier a city is founded, the better. So I don't think this is that much of a loss. Also, besides from the start of the set, most cities are only working improved tiles, except Nottingham and Hastings.

Also I think, this is the reason I only play emperor and not immortal.


I hope blunders like these won't happen again, sorry ungy...

 

It's Ok--it's only a game

Well not necessary to read whole thread but active player should read recent posts and discussion since the last set.

Well not necessarily. Each additional city has a high maintenance cost and once the land is claimed it is often better to more fully devlop existing cities.
In this game, because of the amount of jungle, we have need for more workers than normal. To many cities early can cripple the economy and it can be difficult to recover from that.

We also do have need for defense, especially now that Monte has claimed much of the land.

 

Shared religion provides an EP discount as well. We will also want the religion bonus to cover for penalties from having our spies caught. Since the library is 1 turn from completion, we might as well finish it at this point and try to speed up sailing + alpha. But don't run scientists as it'll corrupt our pool.

How is it that the gems aren't mined yet?? I also think the gem/sugar spot would have been better for Canterbury but it's probably still premature to settle that city.

I would change teching to sailing (3 turns) and then send our western worker north to mine the gems. Also, we need axes ASAP as Monty has enough on his hands. We don't want this game to end that fast...

And we should OB with Qin as well. The other AI are pleased with him at the moment so there's no loss in open borders. We can always close them later if he adopts an inconvenient religion.

Question for the team: What are we doing with the first GSpy? Since we're going to change the slider soon, is it better to build Scotland Yard with the first spy?

Ragnar is busy warring with his neighbor. Looking at the EP distribution, he only just recently met Qin, Khmer, and us. He's busy attacking somebody else. It looks like there's coast to the south of Tenochtitlan so I'm guessing there are at least 3 2-civ continents in this game. I don't know what the configuration for the 7th civ is though. That also means we're sharing this island with Monty and ONLY Monty...

 

We don't have to worry about AIs unwilling to trade monopoly techs. We'll just steal them!

Assuming that Monte has IW then we might be facing a hunk of jags. Clearing jungles around our frontier cities could be useful in that case and a force of shock axes, maybe a spear in case Monte sneaks in some chariots (assuming he has horses and we don't know he hasn't).

The good news is that we're imperialistic and we'll get a GG quickly if Monte attacks.

 

Infiltration is better for sure. You get the whole sum, unlike great scientists early on, and can spend it for several techs. Immediate benefit is almost always better than benefit 100 turns later - faster courthouses/markets etc..

Reason why settling more cities in this case was pretty bad mystyfly are the amount of jungle, but also the amount of awesome resources we got waiting for us. Mining that gems is such a boost, it will provide 8(!!) commerce and that just can't wait. That's also why we wanted the fish+gems+sugar city before any others, that's another +8 gems (riverside) and also 4 food sugar and 5-6 food fish. I wasn't planning on putting a city there for 2000 years as there are so many much better spots with food resources. However, what's done is done, it's still going ok.

Being able to steal techs before they want to trade (monopoly) is very useful indeed pigswill, especially for wonders.

Agree with sailing - switch to 100% science when the library is done and wait with alphabet.

 

Monty has a horse source. We should build a few spears but mostly shock axes. Hopefully he'll jsut end up suiciding units against us. Monty also has iron as you can see a few jags in his capital.

@mystyfly: I crossposted with ungy. Sorry if my comments/criticisms sound harsh but don't take them personally! SG's are about learning and fun.

 

If Mansa were our neighbor, I'd agree. But we have Monty and I imagine he's going to crash his economy soon as he prepares for war. Or are you suggesting that we infiltrate Khmer or Qin? Maybe we should hold off on deciding what to do with our GSpy until we get alphabet and figure out who's got the best techs so far (and probably the best starting land).

 

Yes, there is absolutely no rush in infiltrating - that's also why I earlier suggested mapping out the big islands with other civs and Monty's territory (maybe with the woody warrior? He should be safe within Aztec territory) as fast as possible to be able to predict/plan ahead what's up. We don't necessarily have to infiltrate Monty, Qin is a decent techer isn't he? I think he's pretty close too as we met him first, but in order to know that we need to map out some more land with work boats.

We can steal several techs during 1 turn I guess, so it's better to hold on to that Great Spy a couple of turns until we get the bigger picture.

As to Monty; I think we should declare war the moment he gets to "we have enough...." assuming we have a decent standing army. This will have to be discussed before done though, as it's very very situational. That way there will be more turns before he turns up with a stack of units (also hopefully smaller stack) and we'll be able to sue for peace earlier if we run into trouble as the timer starts running upon declaration, not when he's entering our territory. We'll suffer -3 diplomacy, but better that than the game.

I think this map lay-out is unfortunate. We can end up with no other choice but to take out Monty as he's the only one on the continent and will most likely only attack us. Then we'll be pretty big and have it easy as the other espionage attempts ungy mentioned. Although the difficulty might be higher here? What were the others in? Hopefully we'll still have a good game.

 

We have no standing army but Monty has enough on his hands. Pretty much the worst case scenario

Infiltration has the downside that the EP's are only against one civ. IF you settle or build Scotland Yard, you can redistribute the EP's as you please.

 

Lurker comment(s)

In the original series, infiltration was not allowed. Is it allowed here?

Even if it is allowed, Scotland Yard is very strong (think library + university + academy all rolled up into one!). It seems like with a high commerce city, Scotland Yard allows you enough espionage to steal what you need and has much higher long term benefits. Scotland Yard is much more flexible in terms of who you target with EP as well as having very nice synergy with Bureaucracy. Food for thought....

Good luck!

GS

 

Settling doesn't seem an attractive proposition because compared to the EPs we produce from hamlets and villages using the slider it will end up fairly trivial.

Scotland Yard is more tempting but only boosts EPs from one city.

If we can get OB with Qin and fit in a galley then we could infilitrate there. Or else we could use our first GSpy to infiltrate Monte and the next to infiltrate Qin. We need all the techs from now on including the classical ones and Monte should at least be good for those.

 

Lurker comment:
Very interesting game, this. Will lurk.
Concerning infiltration, I think it is by all means superior to anything else at this stage of game.
You'll get around 3,5k EPs. You just can't generate that many EPs in reasonable time at this point. The downside is getting EPs only towards one rival, so you'd have to choose carefully.

I'm not entirely sure, but I'm under impression that it only works that way if you are the founder of the shared religion. And it's quite a big discount (40%)

 

For everybody playing this game, you should read this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=252496

It explains mission cost/modifiers. Of key note is this:
We add ESPIONAGE_CITY_RELIGION_STATE_MOD if the city has our state religion (and the enemy DOESN'T) but we don't have holy city, and ESPIONAGE_CITY_HOLY_CITY_MOD if we have the founding location

So you get a modifier with your state religion present in their city. If you have the holy city, it's even better. We will get a 15% modifier as compared to the 25% holy city modifier.

EDIT: I'm wrong on this. We will not get the 15% religion bonus as that only applies if your state religion is not the same as the enemy's state religion. So I'm not sure I read the article properly but we may not get any shared religion bonus (as pointed out by Betruger).