UNGY-01 Another spy attempt

[ungy]

Nice set pigswill!

It looks to me like nat is at the moment a little worse than bureau for EP's due to the high % of commerce in the capital. We'll need it soon enough for drafting tho so we definately want it.

We should get started on the Globe this set--we're well positioned--although a bit hammer poor so we might want to use the whip-overflow trick.

I think what is keeping us alive this game is the AI-AI warring--1400 and lib about to pop--and the stronger AI are close to us and fighting each other.

Monte might be OK to go after even if he's got rifling too as long as he just is getting it. He'll have a large army of obsolete units that'll just be XP for our draftees. My guess is we'll get it elsewhere first.

Roster:

Ungy
Rusten
Pigswill: just played
Shuyhe: UP
Mystyfly: On deck
Morganknight

 

[shyuhe]

A quiet set of thieving. The AI are teching pretty well in this game - hopefully we will get rifling soon so that we can declare war.

Turn 200 - everything looks good.

Turn 201 - We're #2 in size in the world - Monty is #1. If we take him out, we'll definitely be able to get a win later. There is an AP vote to stop trading with MM. I vote no but it doesn't really matter... Survy is also the first to get liberalism. I'm not sure what tech he took. And we steal paper.

Turn 202 - I trade maps with Sitting Bull, and notice that he hasn't even met Monty yet That guy is so backwards... But he has an impressive looking SoD:

Turn 203 - MM wants PP for HBR + 925 gold. Tempting but no.

Turn 204 - We steal optics. I fail in an attempt on nationalism.

Turn 205 - MM wants OB this time - don't you get a clue???? NO. I succeed in attempt #2 on nationalism.

Turn 207 - we get a slave revolt in London I bribe it off. We also steal constitution from Qin. I immediately queue up jails in our cities. I also noticed that Ragnar is teching MT We may want to consider re-assigning some points and send a few spies to steal MT from him.

Turn 210 - Ragnar wants help vs. MM. Only SB likes him so I agree for the diplo points.

Our spies have been stationary for:

Nagara: 1
Chengdu: 1
Xian: 0
Hangzhou: 0
Texcoco: 1 and 2
Tlaxcala: 0

I had 1 spy discovered by Qin during my set. Here's the tech screen:

Monty is teching democracy right now MT by Ragnar is the other tech that looks good. Nobody has tried going after replaceable parts yet. I've also started the GT in Warwick (2 food specials and not much else). It's still fresh though so feel free to move it if you don't like the spot (it's 18 turns right now). MM is also getting crushed by Ragnar - So the one tech fiend in the game is being taken out. However Ragnar may become a late game issue...

 

[mystyfly]

Got it.

We should get some more military out. Our power graph is pathetic. I can start building trebs for the war vs monty. Finish those jails. Steal some more techs, preferabely military ones. I think it looks quite good atm. Let's take off!

 

[ungy]

I'd drop espionage to 0 while we build our jails.

As for military, I would only build trebs--nothing else will really be all that useful on offense. Maybe get HBR and some jumbos--they still have some life in them.

 

[mystyfly]

played my turns but no time for report yet, sorry.

save:
View attachment ungy-01 AD-1550.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Morganknight]

Got it and will play later tonight or early tomorrow.

 

[Rusten]

Suryavarman has adopted Free Religion, dropped to cautious and has enough on his hands since last time. He also has 4 galleons and some caravels just outside of our borders. Were they headed to Monty or is he about to land on us? I can't check the event log to see when they signed peace. ~.~

If they signed peace this turn then it makes sense as to where they're going, otherwise we're probably screwed. Also, how long ago since he adopted free religion and dropped to cautious? (again, can't check event log whereas you as a BUG-user still can). When did he get enough on his hands? Do you know or did you not check?

I can't see Suryavarman's SoD anywhere near Malinese lands so I'm guessing it's in the galleons.

Edit: He switched to FR during shyuhe's set (didn't look at the game then) so we're in very bad shape. Could be too late to fix it.

Edit 2: Suryavarman and Monty has 18 and 14 gold per turn available. We should sell some resources to them.

 

[shyuhe]

I didn't notice Survy changing. He must have swapped as soon as he got liberalism Honestly, I think he'd dogpile Mansa before he'd attack us. Mansa is about as low as us on the power graph and he has somebody already going after him.

 

[Rusten]

Should've used espionage to force him back then, we were enjoying an extremely safe environment and could cruise to redcoats but now it's much riskier.

Honestly, I think he'd dogpile Mansa before he'd attack us. Mansa is about as low as us on the power graph and he has somebody already going after him.

I would think so too normally, but there's no SoD and 4 galleons headed our way......

Not saying he'll attack us for sure, but the option is there and if we're unlucky we've thrown away the game.

 

[mystyfly]

Report:

(0) 1500AD
switch esp to 0%

(1) 1505 AD
QSH finishes Gunpowder > Chemistry. Nice!
SB demands 720g -> no dude
We lost cows & banana deal from Ragnar as our trade route is blocked by MM
I get cows + 11g from SB for Ivory instead.

(2) 1510 AD
Monty wants us to DOW on the Khmer > no
Monty now owns the AP.
Ragnar captures Kumbi Saleh.
We lose a spy @ Xian.

(3) 1515 AD
Sury and Monty make peace.
I steal Astronomy from Monty.

(4) 1520 AD
Spy in Tlaxcala is discovered.
Timbuktu is captured by Ragnar. Think about bribing Ragnar to stop...

(5) 1525 AD
Steal Education from QSH (which probabely wasn't really needed... )
Steal Music from Monty, showing us that MM already has MT.
Steal Theocracy from Sury.
Upgrade our pathetic navy of 2 galleys to 2 galleons (for 220g).

(6) 1530 AD
Steal Gunpowder from QSH.
Sell edu to Monty for 320g (who would get it next turn anyway).

(7) 1535 AD
QSH techs RP (yay!!).

(8) 1540 AD
Rag and MM make peace.

(9) 1545 AD
We lose a Spy in a city called something like Atzcapo...
Whip GT in Warwick.

(10) 1550 AD
nothing..

---

We should make peace with MM now as ragnar is out of the war as well.
As already mentionned, Sury is in WHEOOH - mode. This stack of ships left the port of the closest Khmer city 2 turns before it got where it is now. I don't know if sury wants to DOW us or monty. However, they've still got a Peace Treaty (and they're cautious towards eachother?! WTH). We could bribe Monty vs almost anyone and QSH vs MM.
I finished those jails and built some trebs. In case Sury attacks us we're practically screwed. However if he only launches maces, trebs and knights, a couple of muskets should ensure our survival I think...

 

[ungy]

OK- for what it's worth Sury's fleet looks like it has turned away from York--if he were coming for us I think he'd have headed straight in. He is 7 turns into peace with Monte--not sure if the AI sends out the invasion during peace like that tho.

We might want to take nationalism--we'll want it soon enough anyway and we can draft out some muskets to beef up our army--they rate to have some use later anyway. With the EP bonus it's a close call to bureau (not worth it but almost).

We need some better spec MM--cities that are not going to produce a GP should work sea tiles and whip--not specs. We should try and get a few GP--we can use eng, merchant as well as spy. A few cities are also not working the right tiles as well.

If Sury does attack us, don't hesitate to stop for a huddle--we'll need all the wisdom we have.

Sury is researching communism, another biggie for us.

We should take peace with Mansa and sell him gunpowder--he's got a heap of gold we can get.

 

[Morganknight]

I can't get the save to work. Could I get a swap?

 

[ungy]

I can't get the save to work. Could I get a swap?

I'll take the next set--play tonight.
Morganknight--I'll put you on skip until you can get a save to work. Just chime in when you're back in action.

 

[ungy]

OK- let's keep our fingers crossed on Sury.

Inherited turn:
We make a resource trade:

Cancel a trade with Monte.

Peace with Mansa:

A trade with Mansa:

Whip grocer in Alemanni.

I agonize over civics and decide to take nat and not theo. We're not going to be drafting wholesale here and still have a lot of buildings left but I'm just nervous about our defense (or lack thereof).



Sury's fleet heads off and we get an AP resolution:

Mansa vassals to Sury:
this is good. That'll stop Ragnar from finishing him off and keep up the cultural pressure.

1555: I build some walls and castles. I think we can wait a while on Econ, and the defense doesn't hurt.
Unfortunately we stop trading we Sitting Bull (we voted no)

We need to get our spies in position.
1560...

1565
I run Alemanni as a GP farm.

1570...

1575...

1580 QSH take FR
He's teching assembly line!

We fail to steal RP from QSH

1585: We steal chemistry from Vikings
Start Moai in Newcastle.

1590 steal HBR from Mansa.
steal democracy from Sury.

Sury has been 40 something turns to communism for a while now???

We get a nice random event:

1595 We steal RP from QSH.

1600... I stopped spending EP's on Monte. Our spy was facing a sec bureau-easier pickings away. Plus I'm not at all sure we're going to want to go to war with him--he's the AP guy--that tends to create problems. Now that Sury and QSH are FR that creates some opportunity. Although that opportunity goes away pretty quick if QSH gets rifling.

We're making generally good tech progress--just missing the all important rifling. With hindsight the nat move was a bit of a panic but we may want to add a few more muskets. With pinch they become a much more attractive upgrade.

Economics will obsolete our castles--not worth it as the additonal trade routes are not worth much at this point.

Our spies are not too far along their seasoning.

 

[ungy]

save is here:

Roster:
Ungy: Just played
Rusten: UP
Shyuhe On deck
Pigswill
Mystyfly
Morganknight--waiting to hear on comp issues.

Rusten: check the EP allocations--I think we want to increase on QSH since he's not far from assembly line.

 

[Rusten]

The Suryavarman part is pretty obvious; he's heading for a cultural victory. I suspected he'd do this sooner or later given having so many religions in his cities. As we're running an EE I can show it instead of writing so no need for a discussion.

proof in spoiler below....

Spoiler :

As you can see he's stopped researching completely and upped cultural slider to 80% (+16 entertainment). I guess we can stop allocating EPs onto him until we attack.

Wow at QSH, I guess we'll be getting infantry at the same time as riflemen. I was going to suggest drafting a lot of musketmen and upgrade for the pinch, but given QSH and his teching that's probably not the best move. We might not get to use our redcoats at all.

I don't understand why we're making walls and castles being neither protective nor having stone. The hammers could be so much better spent. They will obsolete very soon as well because we need corporation for assembly line. Did you forget this or? Economics+Corporation are pre-reqs.

Moai Statues in newcastle? Alemanni would be so much better. I think I'll switch that. Not only will it take 28 turns to finish in newcastle, it will be almost useless. I was thinking of farming that city and use it for drafting, speed up York and/or spy specialists. It will never be a great city even with a national wonder.

Sorry for the negative comments, feel free to point out any mistakes I make as well. Everyone's doing a good job, so don't get upset, I simply like discussing and comparing different approaches.

I'll have a closer look and play my turns after getting some sleep.

PS: Mercantilism is a no-brainer at this point. Most civs have adopted it and QSH is running free market with few cities. This means he's basically teching cuz of trade routes from us. Mercantilism is so under-rated. It will also mean less wasted commerce on the culture slider lader. We won't waste a turn on a revolt either because we need to adopt USuffrage as well. I could write 5 pages about how good mercantilism is compared to the average opinion, but as we're running an EE I'll just show 3 screens, they should be clear. Most of QSHs and our cities are in general the same as the ones shown below. His city shown is even inland, I dare not open his costal ones.

Spoiler :

/rant off for now

(Got it)

 

[Morganknight]

I was able to get Ungy's save to load, so let me sneak in after Rusten, please?

 

[shyuhe]

I've glanced at the save as well. Monty has enough on his hands again. There is a small chance that he's going to declare on us so we may want to draft up some muskets to protect our front lines a little better. Particularly the Globe city - that should be drafting almost every turn from here on out until we swap out of nationalism (unlikely). We should also farm over the grassland tiles to help it re-grow faster from drafting.

Survy is going culture - it looks like his 3 legendary cities are in the ball park of about 200-300 culture right now. Given that rate, it'll take him over 150 turns from this point to attain victory. So at some point, we will probably have to invade him to raze his legendary city. But that's a long ways off...

Also, Ragnar is willing to backstab Survy + Mansa for the three techs we have on him. I don't think it's worth the bribe as we may want to bribe Ragnar against somebody else soon (Monty if he backstabs us).

While assembly line is a great tech, I think it'll be better to hold off on it until we can draft some redcoats. Redcoats are much more pop efficient than infantry and they'll be more than enough to mow down Monty (which I still think we should do once we get rifling).

I have mixed feelings about castles at this point. They DO add to power, which we're sorely lacking in (and may be why Monty is going to try backstabbing us again). But they'll obsolete soon too... We should at least build them in the two western border cities (if they don't have them already) to slow down treb assaults. It looks like Monty won't have steel any time soon (he needs gunpowder -- chemistry -- steel) so castles will help a lot in defense. Yes I'm being overly cautious but I think we're the most inviting target for Monty right now. As for the more interior cities, I think we should scrap them and just build wealth/military.

That's some trade discrepancy with QSH. Mercantilism sounds like a good idea. If we're going to swap to US, do we want to get out of slavery too? The slave revolt event is on in this game so there's a risk of that happening and emancipation will help lower the in our cities. I don't know if it'll take an extra turn of anarchy though.

 

[pigswill]

We can either go for infantry or redcoats. Infantry are obviously more powerful though redcoats get the 25% bonus v gunpowder which helps narrow the gap. Infantry are more expensive to draft iirc (3pop vs 2pop for redcoats). Infantry also obselete castles through economics as a prereq. As well as the maintenance free power boost castles give us an extra trade route (though of course we'd get this through corporation even if we stayed in mercantilism) and a 25% espionage bonus which imo is the main reason for building them.
It might be worth considering staying with redcoats and aim to pick up artillery instead of infantry (steel, physics and rilfing?).

One aspect of an espionage economy I hadn't really considered beforehand is that we're totally reliant on the vagaries of the AI's tech paths which makes it harder to plan ahead. I don't think we'd seriously anticipated that we'd be going towards assembly line before Qin headed in that direction and there could be further surprises in the future.

 

[mystyfly]

I think we should go with redcoats. They're drafted for 1 pop (inf for 2, mech inf for 3 pop) and are cheaper produced. Our empire definitely lacks hammers so this is something to consider. I think we shouldn't build castels, focus on stealing ass line later while amassing gold for upgrades (we could strike first with redcoats, probabely take peace and upgrade to inf). The longer we wait the more powerful monty gets me thinks. If sury manages to do serious damage to monty striking soon is even more important. We shouldn't wait until he recoveres.

I don't think if sury attacks monty, his sod will ever see homelands again. I don't think sury has a real chance of winning culture. Having MM as a vassal makes Raggy more likely to attack and he pissed off QSH so he probabely went for those military techs to attack sury. We shouldn't be concerned about sury. There must be very much going wrong if we lose to him.